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I've always wondered this. What is the history and tradition behind having a red and white, swallow-tailed guidon?
UPDATE: A member said it is because the US Cavalry traces it's linage to European Dragoons and Dragoons are often associated with red and white. This makes a lot of sense. So the next question is why are Dragoons red and white?
UPDATE: A member said it is because the US Cavalry traces it's linage to European Dragoons and Dragoons are often associated with red and white. This makes a lot of sense. So the next question is why are Dragoons red and white?
Cavalry
19D: Cavalry Scout
19C: Cavalry Officer
Military History
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 71
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MSG William Hesser
SSG Martin Reyna - SF is already there waiting for the conventional forces to catch up.
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1SG John Duprey
1SG John Duprey - welcome I am new to been ret since age 60MRD but still the Army and he way of life and the no BS
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What I really want to know is if this guy in the picture could bring his horse into theater, why can't I bring a dog?
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John Mullis
Please refer to Grey scouts Rhodesia both mounts and Rhodesian Ridgebacks were used in tracking terrorist in the bush and velts.
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SSG (Join to see)
SMSgt Roger Horton This is in fact a real photo from 1-61 CAVs Gold Spur Ceremony held at Camp Clark, Khost AFG in 2013. We rented the horse from a farmer in a village nearby the COP.
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I seem to recall the color combination made it easily identifiable in the smoky conditions on the battlefields in the days of black powder. Drab/darker colors tended to blend with the fog of way. The red and white was visible, and necessary due to the mobility of the Cav, whereas other units were slower moving. It helped to prevent blue on blue. I can't remember where I learned this though. It does make sense.
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LtCol Robert Quinter
Right on Maj. Davis. They were originally meant to guide on, and red, white and the yellow mentioned in another post are all colors that would be easily identified.
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SrA Jay Brigham
Red on top from a distance told commanders that the unit they were looking at was doing ok, but white on the top meant they were in trouble. Easy way to communicate HELP on the battle field, from long distance.
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Gentlemen,
As someone who was on location at FOB Clark, Afghanistan 2013 when this picture was taken. Believe me when I say, it is not photo shopped. The photo was taken after the traditional Cavalry charge to close out the casing of 1-61 CAV ' s colors and Squadron formation. The horse was brought on to the FOB and was used for the charge. A local farmer brought 2. But the other was......non cooperative. The gentlemen on the horse was CPT Woodard and believe it or not he was an engineer. But he was the only one brought up around horses who could control it.
As someone who was on location at FOB Clark, Afghanistan 2013 when this picture was taken. Believe me when I say, it is not photo shopped. The photo was taken after the traditional Cavalry charge to close out the casing of 1-61 CAV ' s colors and Squadron formation. The horse was brought on to the FOB and was used for the charge. A local farmer brought 2. But the other was......non cooperative. The gentlemen on the horse was CPT Woodard and believe it or not he was an engineer. But he was the only one brought up around horses who could control it.
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MSgt Frank Martin
As a Person who was taught to ride horses by loving farm relatives.. I can relate..
Captain Woodard from the photo looks like he is doing it well..
But the proof would be in a video. LOL
Captain Woodard from the photo looks like he is doing it well..
But the proof would be in a video. LOL
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SGT (Join to see)
I took the photo and many more of the entire Spur Ceremony. I miss that DFAC at Clark.
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SFC (Join to see)
Those Afghan horses were mean and a difficult to control. I did a 3or 4 daylong patrols on horseback in Bamian province in 2003. Much respect to the mounted warriors of the past. Of course wearing IBA, an assault pack and no rifle scabbard made it suck worse.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - We all do miss those amazing meals that was provided at Clark.
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Bloood before surrender. Because we're hard charging, proud mother fuckers who don't take shit from anyone.
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CPT Jack Petzko
HOOAH! I am named for my Uncle Jack, who was in the 3rd ACR (Brave Rifles) under Patton in WW2
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MSG Mark Stinson
I had the honor of being raised by a soldier that was mounted. My dad joined the Army in 1936 and spent 3 years on horse back. If was in the 29th Infantry Regiment Mounted, at Ft Clayton, CZ. In 1939 the Army went mech and they took away the horses away and the sabers. One Christmas I gave him a replica saber that was a copy of his original. After he stopped crying he took me outside to show me saber drills.
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SSG (Join to see)
Doesnt it mean Death Before Dishonor? Red being Death and white being Dishonor. But every branch is different
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Because "Dragoon" came from"Dragon"; dragons breathe fire (red) and scare the shit out of their enemies (turn them WHITE). Makes perfect sense to me.
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LTC David Brown
I was going to add my share of BS and claim it is a throw back to the Knights Templers with a white cover with a Red Cross across the front.. Pure WAG (wild a**ed guess) on my part .
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SP5 Jim Ford
MSG Brad Sand - Concur with both statements --- from 1620's French mounted infantry were armed with black powder muskets with hammers resembling the mythical beasts and they did breathe fire when ignited. The soldiers became identified with their dragon-like weapons, hence dragoons. Anyone on the receiving end of an AirCav hot LZ insertion with gunships supressing enemy opposition would swear he'd been attacked by a whole host of dragons.
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SSG Carlos Madden & MSG (Join to see) - I just read through the link that SPC Craig Abram shared. Looks like the reason "why" comes down to simply "Because that is how it started". In 1834, the Army authorized a red over white guidon for the "Regiment of Dragoons", which according to that site is the 1st Cavalry. Since then it just carried over to other cav units.
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MSG Brad Sand
SGT Luke Brock -
I am sure you were told a LOT of things. Death before surrender sounded great, but I am sure that came after it was established not before.
I am sure you were told a LOT of things. Death before surrender sounded great, but I am sure that came after it was established not before.
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MAJ (Join to see)
According to the HQDA history page, yellow was the branch color of cavalry beginning in 1861, which evolved into the yellow of armor and was made official in 1951
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SP5 Jim Ford
MAJ (Join to see) - I thought the Union Cavalry switched to yellow in 1861 because they wouldn't stand and fight Confederate Cavalry until mid 1863. Just a guess based upon memoires of J.E.B. Stuart, John Mosby, Nathan Bedford Forrest, etal.
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At one time the color for Infantry was white, and Mounted Infantry (aka Dragoons) used red and white. Dragoons eventually became synonymous with Cavalry, and Cavalry units maintained the red and white guidon of the Dragoons even when their primary color changed to Yellow. I suspect it was an effort to keep some of the Dragoon heritage and also maintain some difference between Cavalry and Armor units.
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SSG Carlos Madden
Ahhh... So the linage is traced back to Dragoons which makes sense because historically, Dragoons across the globe are red and white. So now the obvious question is, "why are Dragoons red and white?"
Thanks SSG (Join to see), this is the best answer so far.
Thanks SSG (Join to see), this is the best answer so far.
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SSG (Join to see)
White is a color common to infantry around the world, the color for Infantry in the US didn't permanently change to light blue until 1903. So having white makes sense, the red was probably just to differentiate between mounted Infantry and regular Infantry. I'm not sure why Red would also have been chosen, since it was traditionally associated with Artillery.
French Cavalry guidons are blue and white, blue being another color associated with Infantry... so the pattern holds up in other armies as well. I believe Gen Custer also used a blue and red guidon... it's not hard to understand why that color combination would have fallen into disuse here in the US.
French Cavalry guidons are blue and white, blue being another color associated with Infantry... so the pattern holds up in other armies as well. I believe Gen Custer also used a blue and red guidon... it's not hard to understand why that color combination would have fallen into disuse here in the US.
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MSG Brad Sand
Well, when you know the historical 'facts', you start to see an actual picture of why things may have happened.
Dragoons, while treated as cavalry in their later years, originally would ride into battle like cavalry but fight on foot as Infantry. So if you had White flags for your Infantry and Red for your cavalry...Red and White for your dragoons. That makes complete sense to me...so it is probably wrong because we are talking about the military, and the French at that?
Dragoons, while treated as cavalry in their later years, originally would ride into battle like cavalry but fight on foot as Infantry. So if you had White flags for your Infantry and Red for your cavalry...Red and White for your dragoons. That makes complete sense to me...so it is probably wrong because we are talking about the military, and the French at that?
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SPC (Join to see)
That's what I was thinking too- we took the battle flags from the Polish Red Lancers and flipped the colors. (They had white over red = blood given in support of the sacred cause)
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SP5 Jim Ford
SPC (Join to see) - Actually, Polish Uhlan pennants were red over white (see photos of early paintings).
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Short answer: Polish (lance) cavalry traditions adopted by most European cavalry units especially after the napoleonic wars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhlan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uhlan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars
Uhlans (in Polish: "Ułan"; in Russian: Уланы; "Ulan" in German) were Polish light cavalry armed with lances, sabres and pistols. The title was later used by lancer regiments in the Russian, Prussian, and Austrian armies.[a]
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