Posted on May 4, 2016
Do you believe that these West Point first classman are violating the UCMJ by making a political statement while in uniform?
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DOD directive 1344.10 states:
-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)
From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point
-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)
From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point
Posted in these groups: 
United States Military Academy (USMA West Point)
Black Lives Matter
PoliticsUSCC
UCMJ
United States Military Academy (USMA West Point) Black Lives Matter PoliticsUSCC UCMJ
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 237
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LTC (Join to see)
SSG Robert Webster - Actually, my sarcastic posting of the photos was to point out the very issue that you pointed out. You can't judge the photos without context. But there is no context given about the photo of the black female cadets. But still, many are jumping to the conclusion that is is a political statement. It may turn out that they were, in fact, trying to show support for one group or another. Or it may turn out that they were expressing pride and support for each other and the obstacles they have overcome to make it so far at West Point, including some obstacles unique to being black female cadets. The thing is is that you just can't tell from looking at the photo. Yet many on here have stated that it is definitivelly a BLM salute. Others have called it a Black Panther salute from the 60s. (and those aren't the same groups by any means). So really my point is that people should stop judging the photo and the cadets until the actual facts are determined.
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A1C Melissa Jackson
SSG Robert Webster There IS a difference, and I DO know it.
The photograph under question right now is a bunch of black females- ALL IN ONE PLACE- making the same right arm raised up pose! Black female cadets in one place holding up their right arepms are WAY scarier than this majority white male photo. I mean, what if those black females actually thought they were OWED some RIGHTS?
Curses.
The photograph under question right now is a bunch of black females- ALL IN ONE PLACE- making the same right arm raised up pose! Black female cadets in one place holding up their right arepms are WAY scarier than this majority white male photo. I mean, what if those black females actually thought they were OWED some RIGHTS?
Curses.
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SSG Robert Webster
A1C Melissa Jackson - Is this statement in response to this statement or another of my statements in this thread? Your statement here is in line with other statements that I have made within this discussion, or was your comment meant to be directed at LTC Mathews? Please reread your statement and the statement/s that it is directed at. Thank you.
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This gets to one of my favorite topics: are young men and women at the Service Academies part of the Armed Forces? I've never understood the logic of having cadets be subjected to the UCMJ, paid by the military, etc, etc but not counting their service for things like retirement and pay. Before we address the question here about this photo, we need to resolve the bigger question.
For the record, I don't find that there is a UCMJ violation here, of any sort.
For the record, I don't find that there is a UCMJ violation here, of any sort.
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Maj Rob Drury
LTC (Join to see) - Well, not being an academy grad, I can't claim first-hand knowledge, but my UPT class was about 70% USAFA grads, more than one of whom told me that. Perhaps the situation has changed, or they were just knucklehead 2Lts who didn't know what they were talking about.
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PO2 Skip Kirkwood
It's the rule. It doesn't have to make sense. It's just a rule, because somebody with the authority to make the rules said so.
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LTC Robert McKenna
MAJ (Join to see) -
It took some time, but here is the info your seek..
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a348433.pdf
I believe the law in question was passed on 29 August 1916. If you go to the US Code at the Cornell Law Library and look up the appropriate section, then select the "notes" tab. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/971
The text will show that no service was credible after appointment as a cadet in 1913 (which on the date of the act would only be applicable to cadets then attending, or later attending, one of the service academies).
It took some time, but here is the info your seek..
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a348433.pdf
I believe the law in question was passed on 29 August 1916. If you go to the US Code at the Cornell Law Library and look up the appropriate section, then select the "notes" tab. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/971
The text will show that no service was credible after appointment as a cadet in 1913 (which on the date of the act would only be applicable to cadets then attending, or later attending, one of the service academies).
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That article doesn't make any sense. First, it gives no source as to why he thinks the picture is related to BLM. But also, he stated that the group had been addressing the issue behind closed doors to senior officers. What does that mean? I doubt any cadets were having meetings with senior officers to discuss police brutality. And if they were having discussions behind closed doors about racism at WP, isn't that exactly the venue they should be doing it? And lastly, his description of the goals of BLM is total bullshit.
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CPT John Sheridan
SGT Philip Keys - It's at least worthy of a looking into by their chain of command and perhaps admonishment for ill advised use of social media.
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LTC (Join to see)
SGT Philip Keys - I read a post the Females from USMA are not in trouble after all. It is ok. What they did was not against the code.
I have a separate incident that happened when I was in Theater. We had a soldier killed in combat. The BDE S-2 or Bn S-2 contacted the rear det commander who then called the wife of the deceased and told her to not go to work and to stay home. She stayed home and was traumatized when the Casualty Assistance team came to her door. She knew and told them she was upset at being tipped off.
I was present when the General heard the news. The S-2 was given UCMJ action for breaking SOP. The rear det commander was fired. He was stateside and probably got a GOMAR. One was title 32 and one was title 10. What title are the USMC student on?
Why is title 32 in the USA less than title 10 in Theater mean less punishment for the guy who tipped of the wife of the deceased?
I have a separate incident that happened when I was in Theater. We had a soldier killed in combat. The BDE S-2 or Bn S-2 contacted the rear det commander who then called the wife of the deceased and told her to not go to work and to stay home. She stayed home and was traumatized when the Casualty Assistance team came to her door. She knew and told them she was upset at being tipped off.
I was present when the General heard the news. The S-2 was given UCMJ action for breaking SOP. The rear det commander was fired. He was stateside and probably got a GOMAR. One was title 32 and one was title 10. What title are the USMC student on?
Why is title 32 in the USA less than title 10 in Theater mean less punishment for the guy who tipped of the wife of the deceased?
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COL Sam Russell - See some cadets doing a goofy pose. OK... let's address that 500-lb gorilla: They're all black women and some have a raised fist. Where's the violation?! We see what we want. Maybe the pic has been taken out of text? Could they all be signing the international sign language letter "a" for "Army?" (Poignantly, the pic is directly in front of the Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic.)
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COL Sam Russell
Capt Mark Strobl Here is one West Point Alumnae's response to the photo (not the article).
http://lelav.blogspot.com/2016/05/having-black-unity-and-pride-as-black.html
http://lelav.blogspot.com/2016/05/having-black-unity-and-pride-as-black.html
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COL (Join to see)
COL Sam Russell Sir, I read the article above. By the authors logic a counterargument:
12 female Caucasian cadets gather, throw up their left hand in a fashion similar to the salute that recent history attributes to the white supremacists and take a picture.
They then hashtag #whitewomenrule (as these cadets hashtagged blackwomen rule). People see the image. What will the response be like?
Will the academy believe that they classify as Roman Army aficionados? (the salute has an equal deep historic background all the way to Ancient Greece) or they will get burned at the nearest stake?
Every person should be proud of their heritage and where they are coming from in life. I fear this particular picture was thoughtless in this age and time, semantics matter, officers are meant to lead, to unite all those under them to achieve the mission in hand, this picture doesn't serve that purpose.
12 female Caucasian cadets gather, throw up their left hand in a fashion similar to the salute that recent history attributes to the white supremacists and take a picture.
They then hashtag #whitewomenrule (as these cadets hashtagged blackwomen rule). People see the image. What will the response be like?
Will the academy believe that they classify as Roman Army aficionados? (the salute has an equal deep historic background all the way to Ancient Greece) or they will get burned at the nearest stake?
Every person should be proud of their heritage and where they are coming from in life. I fear this particular picture was thoughtless in this age and time, semantics matter, officers are meant to lead, to unite all those under them to achieve the mission in hand, this picture doesn't serve that purpose.
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They all should be dropped from the rolls and sent home with a BCD. They do this in the active military and publicly disgrace those who perform a similar action. If they are to be kept, graduated and commissioned, a permanent GO reprimand should be placed in their files and never be promoted. The regulations apply to them as well, use it on them. This is why the discipline in the service is at a shit level. Every competent or so called competent leader is afraid of their own shadow. They hide behind the political system cowering to the ignorance of society.
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I see nothing... I just hope when they graduate... they are humble and appreciative.
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No. BLM is an activist "movement". They have no set leadership, no set chapters, and most of the time when someone "claims" BLM they're NOT BLM. Had BLM been a political party, or an arm of a political party THEN yes they would clearly be in violation. "Soldier of Steel" if this is who I think it is, he should just go away and be quiet. He had no issues complaining in uniform about not making SFC and how bad the Army was since he did what he "thought" was "required" to make rank. He got out. I've been kicked down SO hard, I thought down was up! I had REAL NCO's who grabbed my collar, slapped me at parade rest, and practiced PLF's in my ass. Those NCO's made me stay the course and NOT QUIT. So maybe in this situation this "Soldier of Steel" is actually a "Soldier of Weakness or fortune". NCO's know good and damn well that not everyone will make it to the SNCO ranks. It's a fact of life. Do we quit and say "fuck it" I don't want to play anymore? Hells naw. Put your damn pride in your pocket, readjust your damn attitude, and figure out how to help someone ELSE make it where you couldn't. I don't blame anyone BUT myself for not making it, and I DAMN sure won't make videos stating otherwise. Are these the future leaders we want leading our troops? HELLS YEAH. They stayed the course, saw it to the end, and will graduate and continue on leading until either they reach the end of their contracts, or retire with dignity.
BTW "Soldier of Steel"....those "Ladies" in that picture are SOLDIERS. Maybe you should learn basic terms and realize that they fucking EARNED that right to be called SOLDIERS! Get over yourself clown.
BTW "Soldier of Steel"....those "Ladies" in that picture are SOLDIERS. Maybe you should learn basic terms and realize that they fucking EARNED that right to be called SOLDIERS! Get over yourself clown.
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Sgt Edward Padget
Actually they are cadets or classmen till they graduate then they'll be officers. They've not yet graduated so they've not yet earned the "title" of soldier. I disagree with you on BLM I think they have a set leadership. They've done to many things and mustered to many people not to have some sort of organization. I don't think most guys like you and I are privy to that info but there is clearly a puppetmaster within that "movement".
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SSG Warren Swan
Sgt Edward Padget - They are Cadets until they graduate, but they will STILL be Soldiers. Being a Soldier isn't an enlisted or an officer thing, it's A thing period. We can disagree with what BLM is, but information wise, you'd be wrong. BLM isn't just some poor black folk with time on their hands since they are on EBT. There are a lot of educated brothers and sisters, who are productive in their communities who claim BLM, but know that there is no formal leadership in BLM. It's not some mega underground thing. It's much like occupy wall street was. A bunch of small grassroots protesters who came together at one time, and were grouped as one under a banner that some of them never knew about until later. I've said it before on here; most who claim BLM are NOT in any way shape or form BLM. They're opportunists, followers looking to do ignorance and use BLM as a scape goat. I support BLM in some of their peaceful protests, and equally condemn them in their more violent ones. BTW most of the rioters in Ferguson, weren't from there. They had no connection to BLM. They were bused there from areas away as far as NYC. Some came to do peaceful protests, and then there are the others who saw a chance to "get a cop" or act a complete ass.
BTW I know you didn't insinuate anything in my comment, so how I described BLM did not in any way come from your mouth or your keyboard. It is a commonly held thought that is wrong.
BTW I know you didn't insinuate anything in my comment, so how I described BLM did not in any way come from your mouth or your keyboard. It is a commonly held thought that is wrong.
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I suspect they'll be walking penalty tours until graduation. That being said...
I don't buy the comparison of a black person's raised fist to that of a Nazi salute. I hate comparisons to Nazis or Hitler, as not even Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge stacked up to the systematic mass extermination that the Nazis exacted. Perhaps only Josef Stalin rises to that level. A raised fist by a group of black women on the threshold of graduation from USMA--no comparison.
I also hate the comparison with a bunch of white southerners with a rebel flag or kkk hoods. One represents anti-union, pro-slavery sentiments that resulted in 650,000 American deaths, the other has at times been an American terrorist organization bent on subjugating a race of people through murder, intimidation, and denial of rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution. BLM, BP, BLA, as offensive as those groups may be to some, they are not in the same infamous league as the Confederate Army or the KKK.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the DoD or DoA have classified a black raised fist as a racist symbol. I also doubt the USMA administration could show intent of either a political statement, or a racist statement. About the only thing they could hold these women accountable for is bringing discredit to the Academy. In the politically charged environment that is this election year, there is no way the current executive administration would tolerate USMA or DoD denying every African American female senior at USMA from graduating or being commissioned.
Not gonna happen. Nor should it.
There is a great learning opportunity here for these women, and I am sure that the USMA administration will bring that lesson home. In the end, these women will be better officers for it.
I don't buy the comparison of a black person's raised fist to that of a Nazi salute. I hate comparisons to Nazis or Hitler, as not even Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge stacked up to the systematic mass extermination that the Nazis exacted. Perhaps only Josef Stalin rises to that level. A raised fist by a group of black women on the threshold of graduation from USMA--no comparison.
I also hate the comparison with a bunch of white southerners with a rebel flag or kkk hoods. One represents anti-union, pro-slavery sentiments that resulted in 650,000 American deaths, the other has at times been an American terrorist organization bent on subjugating a race of people through murder, intimidation, and denial of rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution. BLM, BP, BLA, as offensive as those groups may be to some, they are not in the same infamous league as the Confederate Army or the KKK.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe the DoD or DoA have classified a black raised fist as a racist symbol. I also doubt the USMA administration could show intent of either a political statement, or a racist statement. About the only thing they could hold these women accountable for is bringing discredit to the Academy. In the politically charged environment that is this election year, there is no way the current executive administration would tolerate USMA or DoD denying every African American female senior at USMA from graduating or being commissioned.
Not gonna happen. Nor should it.
There is a great learning opportunity here for these women, and I am sure that the USMA administration will bring that lesson home. In the end, these women will be better officers for it.
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A1C Melissa Jackson
COL Sam Russell
I think your response to this matter is ABSOLUTELY reasonable and fair-minded.
I guess to others who howl in disgust about there being ANY show of racial unity in the service- you ARE aware, aren't you, that it was not very long ago in historical terms that black people and then female people were not even permitted to APPLY for the service academies, right?
I think your response to this matter is ABSOLUTELY reasonable and fair-minded.
I guess to others who howl in disgust about there being ANY show of racial unity in the service- you ARE aware, aren't you, that it was not very long ago in historical terms that black people and then female people were not even permitted to APPLY for the service academies, right?
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SSG Roger Ayscue
A1C Melissa Jackson - Why is it that "Racial Unity" is just fine UNLESS it is White Racial Unity...then it it racism and against military regulations?
We NEED to STOP being an "Anything-American" and just be AMERICANS. I don't have a hyphen. I am not an Anything-American. I am a Soldier First. A SOLDIER. I don't have a hyphen and I DO NOT want or need one.
It would be wonderful if the Upper Chain of Command would adopt this. BUT the Army especially, has developed an EO Quota system, and senior promotion system that is carried out in secret, with NO Checks or balances, No way for those not promoted to make sure that they were considered fairly. The Senior Enlisted promotion system is carried out in secret, and uses race, gender and I suspect sexuality soon, as promotion criteria, ability and competence be damned. Racism is alive and well in the United States Army, and it is NOT what you think. Say it is not so? When was the last time that a promotion list was recalled because there were not enough whites on it?....(I'll save you the time of looking....NEVER.) This means that IF, in order to meet EO Goals/Quotas, you have to skip EVEN ONE white male to promote enough of something else, then you skipped an individual that WAS MORE QUALIFIED than the one that was promoted.
Racism has no place in the Army, and when you start the house cleaning, start in the EO department First.
We NEED to STOP being an "Anything-American" and just be AMERICANS. I don't have a hyphen. I am not an Anything-American. I am a Soldier First. A SOLDIER. I don't have a hyphen and I DO NOT want or need one.
It would be wonderful if the Upper Chain of Command would adopt this. BUT the Army especially, has developed an EO Quota system, and senior promotion system that is carried out in secret, with NO Checks or balances, No way for those not promoted to make sure that they were considered fairly. The Senior Enlisted promotion system is carried out in secret, and uses race, gender and I suspect sexuality soon, as promotion criteria, ability and competence be damned. Racism is alive and well in the United States Army, and it is NOT what you think. Say it is not so? When was the last time that a promotion list was recalled because there were not enough whites on it?....(I'll save you the time of looking....NEVER.) This means that IF, in order to meet EO Goals/Quotas, you have to skip EVEN ONE white male to promote enough of something else, then you skipped an individual that WAS MORE QUALIFIED than the one that was promoted.
Racism has no place in the Army, and when you start the house cleaning, start in the EO department First.
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COL Sam Russell this is tough but after sitting on this for a day I'd say the photo merits punishment. Though imagine the PR issues USMA will deal with if and when they do hand down a punishment...especially if these ladies do not graduate on time in a few weeks.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
CPT (Anonymous) - I point out that while Black pride is encouraged, white pride is punished. Prove me wrong.
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CPT Russell Pitre
SSG Roger Ayscue - it looks like some think that we have some sort of white privilege. Because of that we owe it to others for them not having it. I'm white but I still haven't got my check in the mail yet. So they don't deserve anything special either.
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Maj Rob Drury
CPT (Anonymous) - "...and yes it is a priviledge [SIC] that your ancestors were not slaves."
Maybe you should check your history before you spew such horseshit.
Historically, slavery has been sufficiently prevalent that almost every human on this planet has slaves within his lineage. If you want to limit it to US history, most whites in this country today did not have slave owners or traders in their lineage, nor (regardless of what the propagandists may say) did they benefit materially from slavery; at least not as much as black Americans today who might otherwise be experiencing a third world existence far worse than even the poorest American today. I'm not suggesting that slaves were done a favor by being brought here, but it could be strongly argued that their descendants were.
Keep in mind that every race on this planet has owned and been owned in slavery. More germane to your statement, YOUR descendants (assuming they were US slaves) were ALL sold by their fellow BLACK countrymen to slave traders, many of whom were also black.
Maybe you should check your history before you spew such horseshit.
Historically, slavery has been sufficiently prevalent that almost every human on this planet has slaves within his lineage. If you want to limit it to US history, most whites in this country today did not have slave owners or traders in their lineage, nor (regardless of what the propagandists may say) did they benefit materially from slavery; at least not as much as black Americans today who might otherwise be experiencing a third world existence far worse than even the poorest American today. I'm not suggesting that slaves were done a favor by being brought here, but it could be strongly argued that their descendants were.
Keep in mind that every race on this planet has owned and been owned in slavery. More germane to your statement, YOUR descendants (assuming they were US slaves) were ALL sold by their fellow BLACK countrymen to slave traders, many of whom were also black.
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IMO this is a politically racist statement and in violation of DoD directives.
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SSgt Jim Gilmore
PFC Alexander Oliveira - Perhaps you should read a bit on the history of the black power salute first seen in the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City.
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Sgt Edward Padget
PFC Alexander Oliveira - It depends on how you view the gesture. Is it political or racial? It seems the majority of the viewers here think it's racially motivated. They are hating on the white race of course. That's what the whole "racial war" has always been about- black against white. It can be construed as racists because that gesture links back to the Black Power movement which was supported by known black racists like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers. The argument is are these women saying that or are they saying something completely different? Judging by the half hearted attempt by the majority of them to even extend the arm fully I'm guessing they don't even know what they're doing or why they are doing it :) It'll be interesting to see what their response the allegations will be.
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Sgt Edward Padget
SSgt Jim Gilmore, lol, doesn't that make ya' feel old that you actually have some historical information that some people may have never heard of ;) Hang in there buddy it'll only get more interesting from here.
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SSgt Jim Gilmore
It appears the O-9 Superintendent of the USMA has sold out for political correctness.
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