Patriotism
Patriotism
Posted on Oct 13, 2017
How would you handle a situation where you saw a soldier (even one of your own soldiers) kneeling during our national anthem?
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Patriotism
UCMJ
Army Regulations
Counseling
Article 15
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 657
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Out of uniform and off-base, nothing identifying him or her as a service member; I'd let it pass.
In uniform or actively signaling that he/she is a service member, I'd identify myself and ask to see ID. Then I would ask their unit, the unit's phone number, and the unit's senior SNCO. Finally I would tell them that I would be referring the matter to their senior SNCO, and advise them that they probably want to make sure that SNCO knows before 0800 on the next work day. Because I will by 0815. And God help them if they've lied about what unit they belong to because I will track them down.
In uniform or actively signaling that he/she is a service member, I'd identify myself and ask to see ID. Then I would ask their unit, the unit's phone number, and the unit's senior SNCO. Finally I would tell them that I would be referring the matter to their senior SNCO, and advise them that they probably want to make sure that SNCO knows before 0800 on the next work day. Because I will by 0815. And God help them if they've lied about what unit they belong to because I will track them down.
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Maj John Bell
CPO Michael Burns - I stand corrected. Thank you CPO Michael Burns I was a Marine so your US Navy Regulation citation applies to me and mine.
When questioned, the other services have cited the U.S. Flag Manual, which does not mandate appropriate honors when in civilian attire, off-base. In addition, the U.S. Flag Manual specifically states that its purpose is to promulgate uniformity and carries no punitive authority.
US Navy Regulations, Chapter 12 [please see link]
" 1205. Procedure During Playing of Nationsl Anthem.
1. Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the nations ensign. In the event that the national ensign is not displayed, they shall face the source of the music. When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last note of the anthem."
https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/us%20navy%20regulations/forms/allitems.aspx
When questioned, the other services have cited the U.S. Flag Manual, which does not mandate appropriate honors when in civilian attire, off-base. In addition, the U.S. Flag Manual specifically states that its purpose is to promulgate uniformity and carries no punitive authority.
US Navy Regulations, Chapter 12 [please see link]
" 1205. Procedure During Playing of Nationsl Anthem.
1. Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the nations ensign. In the event that the national ensign is not displayed, they shall face the source of the music. When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last note of the anthem."
https://www.secnav.navy.mil/doni/us%20navy%20regulations/forms/allitems.aspx
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SFC Barbara Layman
"Out of uniform and off-base, nothing identifying him or her as a service member; I'd let it pass."
If this occurs out of uniform on or off base, the individual should be made aware of the unacceptable action. There may well be others in the area who know him/her and that they are, in fact, uniformed military personnel. Failure to act acknowledges the behavior and others would possibly follow his/her lead.
In any situation, you NEVER know who may be watching. Your failure to act, Major, might indicate to onlookers, who also know you and who you are, that they can get by because you allow infractions to skate.
If this occurs out of uniform on or off base, the individual should be made aware of the unacceptable action. There may well be others in the area who know him/her and that they are, in fact, uniformed military personnel. Failure to act acknowledges the behavior and others would possibly follow his/her lead.
In any situation, you NEVER know who may be watching. Your failure to act, Major, might indicate to onlookers, who also know you and who you are, that they can get by because you allow infractions to skate.
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Maj John Bell
SFC Barbara Layman - If you read the post immediately above yours, you will see that I acknowledged a correction offered by CPO Michael Burns. For all Naval personnel, Sailors and Marines, there is a General Order which covers the matter.
If I knew the person kneeling was a Sailor or Marine, I would:
_correct them on the spot upon completion of the National Anthem,
_ask for ID,
_inform that that I will be letting my counterpart in their chain of command know and
_suggest that they inform the 1st NCO/SNCO above them in the chain of command that there may be inbound on the way.
I have not seen any citation offered by any members of the other services that indicates a general order (GO) exists for their service. Since the GO that covers honors to the colors is an ALNAV, and does not reference a SecDEF instruction. I do not know that such a GO exists for the other services and in a disciplinary matter it would be inappropriate to demand that service members of the other services meet the standard for Naval personnel.
If you have served in joint commands you should be aware that there exist quite a few differences between the customs, courtesies and traditions of the different services. Examples:
_Sailors, Marines and Naval officers do not salute when uncovered,
_Sailors Marines and Naval officers only remain covered indoors when standing post or under arms.
On joint assignments I had a few pissing contests with Jr officers, SNCO's and NCO's of other services who took disciplinary action into their own hands with my Marines on these issues. Not being fully aware of your services' customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's, I'm not going to impose my service's customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's on your soldiers.
If I know an infraction has taken place I deal with it. If uncertain that an infraction has taken case, I find out what the standard is. I don't embarrass myself and damage my credibility/authority by jumping froggy. How about you?
If I knew the person kneeling was a Sailor or Marine, I would:
_correct them on the spot upon completion of the National Anthem,
_ask for ID,
_inform that that I will be letting my counterpart in their chain of command know and
_suggest that they inform the 1st NCO/SNCO above them in the chain of command that there may be inbound on the way.
I have not seen any citation offered by any members of the other services that indicates a general order (GO) exists for their service. Since the GO that covers honors to the colors is an ALNAV, and does not reference a SecDEF instruction. I do not know that such a GO exists for the other services and in a disciplinary matter it would be inappropriate to demand that service members of the other services meet the standard for Naval personnel.
If you have served in joint commands you should be aware that there exist quite a few differences between the customs, courtesies and traditions of the different services. Examples:
_Sailors, Marines and Naval officers do not salute when uncovered,
_Sailors Marines and Naval officers only remain covered indoors when standing post or under arms.
On joint assignments I had a few pissing contests with Jr officers, SNCO's and NCO's of other services who took disciplinary action into their own hands with my Marines on these issues. Not being fully aware of your services' customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's, I'm not going to impose my service's customs, courtesies, traditions and GO's on your soldiers.
If I know an infraction has taken place I deal with it. If uncertain that an infraction has taken case, I find out what the standard is. I don't embarrass myself and damage my credibility/authority by jumping froggy. How about you?
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SFC Brian Gillum
I like this answer. Not only because it is a good answer, but because I have used this exact method. Carried it over to my days as a police officer dealing with juveniles.
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Depends on the circumstances.
Off duty and out of uniform, we would have a quiet conversation.
On duty and/or in uniform, he would have a really bad day.
Off duty and out of uniform, we would have a quiet conversation.
On duty and/or in uniform, he would have a really bad day.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - The answer is a balancing act between what is normal practice, what should happen, and if you know where he likes to get drunk.
Why do the uncivil always expect others to behave in a civilized manner?
Why do the uncivil always expect others to behave in a civilized manner?
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SSgt Ron Simpson
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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If a soldier kneels during the National Anthem he or she can be Courts Martialed.
Free Speech in the military is constrained by the UCMJ.
DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty.
Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.
Free Speech in the military is constrained by the UCMJ.
DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty.
Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.
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SSgt Ron Simpson
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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Maj John Bell
COL William Oseles
DoD Directive 1344.10 does not address rendering or failing to render honors to the flag directly, nor to my understanding indirectly. On what specific paragraph and subparagraph are you basing your opinion?
DoD Directive 1344.10 does not address rendering or failing to render honors to the flag directly, nor to my understanding indirectly. On what specific paragraph and subparagraph are you basing your opinion?
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