Posted on Mar 6, 2014
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Leaders,
I conducted a barracks inspection today. One of my Soldiers, not white, had a modified rebel flag hanging in his room. On it was an eagle and written "these colors don't run".
While common sense to some says this probably shouldn't be there, is there anything that specifically says yes or no. AR 600-15, para 2-4 says a commander can have certain flags and etc removed to maintain good order and discipline.
Who or what determines that this is a violation. What may be offensive to some may not be to others, religion, heritage, etc. Your thoughts?
I conducted a barracks inspection today. One of my Soldiers, not white, had a modified rebel flag hanging in his room. On it was an eagle and written "these colors don't run".
While common sense to some says this probably shouldn't be there, is there anything that specifically says yes or no. AR 600-15, para 2-4 says a commander can have certain flags and etc removed to maintain good order and discipline.
Who or what determines that this is a violation. What may be offensive to some may not be to others, religion, heritage, etc. Your thoughts?
EO
Advice
Policy
Confederate Flag
Barracks
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 2389
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I have a "Rebel" flag tattooed upon my right shoulder. I know the history and meaning of my flag. Although history was written by the victor, the South has a strong and proud history. If someone has an issue with a symbol that is a strong part of our cultural and military history they should crack open a book.
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SFC Linvel Hunt
In this case history was not written by the victor, it was written by the vanqushed.
After the Civil War in the US ended, numerous monuments to fallen soldiers and memorials were erected, honouring the “heroes” of the South. “The War of Northern Agression”, as they called it, was not about slavery, but about the right of self-determination (the right to secede, that is). Quite a few stories were written, romanticizing life before 1861: the great balls, Southern gentlemen, Southern ladies, big houses, cotton plantations, etc. Perhaps the biggest example of this is the novel (and the film adaptation) “Gone With The Wind”. Check out the movie "The Birth Of A Nation" which was played in the White House. After the Civil War, from the 1870s through the 1910s, public schooling became more widespread in the South, and Confederate sympathizers wanted to ensure that their children received an “appropriate” education on Southern history and culture. To that end, Southern states developed statewide adoption policies for textbooks. This allowed the state textbook committees to control content by demanding changes or threatening to cancel book contracts unless the publishers acquiesced. Today, most of the states with statewide textbook adoption policies are still in the South.
To keep their business, Northern publishers began adapting history books to appease Southerners, essentially publishing a separate version of Civil War history for those states. These editions reinforced a Lost Cause narrative for Southern audiences. For example, they depicted enslaved people as happy and content. Officials even counted the textbook lines to make sure authors had mentioned Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee as many times as Abraham Lincoln or Ulysses S. Grant.
What research shows is that as time progressed, increasingly the Southern version of events began infiltrating Northern textbooks as well. As the Southern and Northern narratives merged, Southerners really influenced how and what Americans learned about the Civil War no matter where they lived.
A good read for you: The Secession Acts of the 13 Confederate States. These are documents drawn up by those states. Ths Daughters Of The Confederacy also helped to name the military bases in the South, they also were instramental in getting monuments erected in the South.
Sorry so long, but there is so much misinformation out there.
After the Civil War in the US ended, numerous monuments to fallen soldiers and memorials were erected, honouring the “heroes” of the South. “The War of Northern Agression”, as they called it, was not about slavery, but about the right of self-determination (the right to secede, that is). Quite a few stories were written, romanticizing life before 1861: the great balls, Southern gentlemen, Southern ladies, big houses, cotton plantations, etc. Perhaps the biggest example of this is the novel (and the film adaptation) “Gone With The Wind”. Check out the movie "The Birth Of A Nation" which was played in the White House. After the Civil War, from the 1870s through the 1910s, public schooling became more widespread in the South, and Confederate sympathizers wanted to ensure that their children received an “appropriate” education on Southern history and culture. To that end, Southern states developed statewide adoption policies for textbooks. This allowed the state textbook committees to control content by demanding changes or threatening to cancel book contracts unless the publishers acquiesced. Today, most of the states with statewide textbook adoption policies are still in the South.
To keep their business, Northern publishers began adapting history books to appease Southerners, essentially publishing a separate version of Civil War history for those states. These editions reinforced a Lost Cause narrative for Southern audiences. For example, they depicted enslaved people as happy and content. Officials even counted the textbook lines to make sure authors had mentioned Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee as many times as Abraham Lincoln or Ulysses S. Grant.
What research shows is that as time progressed, increasingly the Southern version of events began infiltrating Northern textbooks as well. As the Southern and Northern narratives merged, Southerners really influenced how and what Americans learned about the Civil War no matter where they lived.
A good read for you: The Secession Acts of the 13 Confederate States. These are documents drawn up by those states. Ths Daughters Of The Confederacy also helped to name the military bases in the South, they also were instramental in getting monuments erected in the South.
Sorry so long, but there is so much misinformation out there.
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SSgt Mary Burns
Those who turned in their commissions and fought for the confederacy were traitors to their oath. Any service-member that has a tattoo of such should have it removed as it reflects poorly on military standards.
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PO3 John Priest
SSgt Burns, are you saying that anyone with such a tattoo should have it removed, even if it is covered easily in Uniform? How about the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Rainbow Pride flag or <gasp> the Blue and Black flag that a lot of BDSM/Leather people use?
The Stars and Bars might be offensive for some, but I'm sure not going to penalize someone for something that can be covered up in a short sleeve uniform.
In terms of history, let's learn from the truth of it, no matter how disgusting or painful so it WON'T repeat.
The Stars and Bars might be offensive for some, but I'm sure not going to penalize someone for something that can be covered up in a short sleeve uniform.
In terms of history, let's learn from the truth of it, no matter how disgusting or painful so it WON'T repeat.
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SFC Barbara Layman
SSgt Mary Burns - Those who tuned in their commissions stood up for their convictions. Those are leaders I am willing to follow. What such dedication shows is that no matter the cause, they can be depended upon to diligently and honorable serve. There is no dishonor in that.
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Just a few thoughts. First of all, Sgt Newman is correct, and SSG Woods makes the salient point that the American flag has some stains of the same color on it as well.
Secondly, what should be done if a soldier of Japanese descent displayed a Japanese flag in their room. After all we fought a war with the (then) racist Japanese as well. I can't tell you how many times I have seen Puerto Rican flags hanging in barracks rooms as well. Where should the line be drawn? How do the French feel about a Cinco de Mayo celebration when it celebrates the defeat of their forces?
The point is, the things that can potentially offend someone are legion. It is important to note that inanimate objects are not, of, and in, themselves "offensive". To be offensive, someone has to CHOOSE to be offended.
I understand I'm not citing any regulations so I'm not answering the original question, and I DO believe that the line has to be drawn.... I would draw that line closer to the Nazi flag than to the flag known as the Stars and Bars, or which Sgt Newman accurately pointed out, is known as the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
Secondly, what should be done if a soldier of Japanese descent displayed a Japanese flag in their room. After all we fought a war with the (then) racist Japanese as well. I can't tell you how many times I have seen Puerto Rican flags hanging in barracks rooms as well. Where should the line be drawn? How do the French feel about a Cinco de Mayo celebration when it celebrates the defeat of their forces?
The point is, the things that can potentially offend someone are legion. It is important to note that inanimate objects are not, of, and in, themselves "offensive". To be offensive, someone has to CHOOSE to be offended.
I understand I'm not citing any regulations so I'm not answering the original question, and I DO believe that the line has to be drawn.... I would draw that line closer to the Nazi flag than to the flag known as the Stars and Bars, or which Sgt Newman accurately pointed out, is known as the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
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PO2 Christopher Foss
SFC (Join to see) - The counterpoint is the phrase "in public". The thread is about a personal room in the barracks, which, by definition, is Not public by which I mean people cannot just walk into it at whim.
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SMSgt Kevin Townsend
What about a sign or flag saying, "I am a proud southerner." or "I wish that General Lee had won.". My point is, we live in a country with many different and diverging interests, beliefs, and customs. I cannot speak to Army regulations but I can say that we must quit trying to divide ourselves into little tiny pieces or we will not have the unity to win wars.
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The Confederate flag offends some because of what it represents. Ok that's fair.
Let's not forget the reprehensible and atrocious things that happened in this country under the USA flag (child labor, Japanese concentration camps, segregation).
I'm just pointing out there is a much larger picture here.
Let's not forget the reprehensible and atrocious things that happened in this country under the USA flag (child labor, Japanese concentration camps, segregation).
I'm just pointing out there is a much larger picture here.
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PO3 Robert Cassidy
SP5 Wick Humble - It is not sarcasm, it is reality. Joining the military services and taking the oath makes me think you probably have ideals that you are willing to fight and die for. We should all stand in unity for those ideals, like the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The evil happening in the United States, like child sex workers, should be fought just as vigorously as we fought Nazis. People like Epstein are a domestic enemy of our Constitution.
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COL Victor Hagan
None of those things amounted to the horors of 400 years of chattel slavery. And segregation was a continuation of the disenfranchisement of Africans and their descendants.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MSG Chris Clanton - Stars and bars was the National Flag of the CSA. The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia was a red square with a blue St. Andrew's Cross and 13 white stars:
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