Posted on Dec 3, 2014
No indictment for NY Cop choke hold death. Right call? More riots?
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Will we see the National Guard deployed in NY City now?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Posted in these groups: 
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Police Grandchildren
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 60
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I think this is the wrong call. This one people should be protesting about, but again, no riots.
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SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
SFC (Join to see) , this isn't a black vs white issue. This is a criminal vs law enforcement issue. It may be convenient and popular to point to Eric Gardener's race as a scapegoat, but reality is he is violation of the law. NO ONE is disputing that. The police did their job to stop and arrest him for his crime regardless of what it is. He pinned down the way he was resisting detention and big dude. Considerably larger than the officer. I heard the media say the chokehold was illegal, and for that I believed the officer was responsible for his death. However, MAJ (Join to see) provided a detailed and reasonable explanation as to how/why the media was wrong about the hold being illegal. I disagree that most police would innocent people to enforce the law; I believe most and can prove with statistics that do their jobs and never kill innocent people. While I acknowledge a few innocent get killed, collateral damage is just reality when criminals and terrorists. Some innocent people get killed by our military, that doesn't make willful/ intentional vigilantes. Whether Black, White, Yellow, or Red, people just need to stop breaking the law and blaming their color. Comply with the police and you'll likely live thru the process
FINAL NOTE: "So until the Police stop acting as JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONERS when it comes to Black people, go preach to somebody else. "
I understand your passion for the issue, and I applaud you speaking your mind. That being said, this quote can be conceived as a disrespectful. As a service member, an NCO telling a field grade officer to preach else to somebody is unprofessional. Let's not travel down this rabbit hole.
FINAL NOTE: "So until the Police stop acting as JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONERS when it comes to Black people, go preach to somebody else. "
I understand your passion for the issue, and I applaud you speaking your mind. That being said, this quote can be conceived as a disrespectful. As a service member, an NCO telling a field grade officer to preach else to somebody is unprofessional. Let's not travel down this rabbit hole.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Michael Jackson , I was going to leave this topic alone but you used "collateral damage " to refer to people killed by policemen. I find that troubling . First and foremost , I am not here to disrespect anyone , be they Officers or Senior NCOs, but I take exception to people trying to justify police brutality . The streets of American cities are not war zones . Also not all people who were bullied in school and became serial murderers did so in one random mass shooting , some do so over years protected by a uniform and a badge . With that said , there are good cops out and I applaud them. My former OIC is one of them .
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SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
SFC (Join to see) , just because it troubling doesn't mean it isn't true. What I find troubling is putting the police on the defense instead of the criminals. Noone disputes the criminals was breaking the law or that they resisted arrest. yet, we blame the law enforcement when they get killed. no doubt, police brutality in some cases, is a problem. That doesn't mean these cases areexamples of said police brutality. one could argue that would all be alive if they cooperated w/ the cops. im not here justifying brutality, but debating whether it is brutality. i think its a ridicious and insulting position to insist that officers and senior NCOs are okay or encourage police brutality. furthermore, suggesting these people need to quit running from the police. common sense tells us when you run, bad things happen including the possibility of being killed. In the military community, we hold individuals accountable for the actions instead of blaming society, the system, upbringing, the dog, anyone/anything else like the civilian populist.
on a side note, some of the streets in places like southside Chicago, East St Louis, south Dallas, and Miami are just as bad if not worse than some war zones. However, its off topic and no point to it.
on a side note, some of the streets in places like southside Chicago, East St Louis, south Dallas, and Miami are just as bad if not worse than some war zones. However, its off topic and no point to it.
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SGM (Join to see)
All excellent points, SFC Michael Jackson. It astonishes me that someone CHOOSES to risk HIS OWN LIFE by failing to obey the lawful orders of the police, looses his life due to the avoidable risk, and there are people who think that's the fault of the police.
No it doesn't mean the police are always right. But you only have ONE life. If you are stupid enough to risk it, maybe it's for the best if you lose it, hopefully before you breed and pass on your faulty genes.
No it doesn't mean the police are always right. But you only have ONE life. If you are stupid enough to risk it, maybe it's for the best if you lose it, hopefully before you breed and pass on your faulty genes.
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I did not see the evidence, those that did, did not find cause to bring charges.
The one thing from all these cases, I am so thankful I am not a cop.
The one thing from all these cases, I am so thankful I am not a cop.
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CMSgt James Nolan
The problem is that we only get a snippet of the information. Please remember this: Many times, very violent encounters occur from a insignificant police encounter.
Examples (just 3 of very, very many tragedies)
On June 17, 2004, three Birmingham police officers were shot and killed. Officers Carlos Owen, Harvey Chisolm and Robert Bennett were attempting to serve a misdemeanor warrant. They had stopped him on the street, and interviewed and released him. They discovered he had a misdemeanor warrant and went to the residence that he walked to. They were shot in the entry of the house by Kerry Spencer and Nathaniel Woods. A MISDEMEANOR. Oh, a fourth officer was also shot, but survived.
On Oct 23, 2006, Fairfield, Alabama, Officer Mary Smith was shot and killed while checking on a suspicious vehicle on Avenue H. Officer Smith had detained one subject and had placed him against the hood of her patrol car when another subject approached and opened fire on her.
One round struck her in the chest, just above her vest, fatally wounding her. A second officer who arrived on the scene moments later was shot in the leg.
On September 30, 2006, Montgomery Police Officer Keith Houts succumbed to a gunshot wound inflicted two days earlier while making a traffic stop on North Decatur Street, just a few blocks from police headquarters, at 12:45 pm. After shooting Officer Houts in the head, the killer shot him several times in the chest as he laid on the ground, but the shots were all stopped by his vest. Officer Houts was transported to Jackson Hospital where he remained in critical condition until succumbing to his wounds. The killer fled the area and was captured in McDonough, Georgia, by members of the United States Marshals Service. He was immediately extradited back to Montgomery and charged with capital murder. He was subsequently sentenced to death.
These are just 3 quick examples of "routine" contacts with people that wound up fatal for the officers.
So far in 2014, 58 officers have been murdered on the streets. This is by gunfire, assault and vehicular assault. There are more, but it would take in depth reading to determine if the deaths were felonious.
Also, remember, that someone's non-compliance with the law usually begins well before police contact. Officers cannot simply say "Oh, Mr Jones, I see that you do not want to be arrested, therefore you are free to go". They/we do have to be held accountable, but, the actions are to be judged by the "reasonable person standard". What would a reasonable person do.
Examples (just 3 of very, very many tragedies)
On June 17, 2004, three Birmingham police officers were shot and killed. Officers Carlos Owen, Harvey Chisolm and Robert Bennett were attempting to serve a misdemeanor warrant. They had stopped him on the street, and interviewed and released him. They discovered he had a misdemeanor warrant and went to the residence that he walked to. They were shot in the entry of the house by Kerry Spencer and Nathaniel Woods. A MISDEMEANOR. Oh, a fourth officer was also shot, but survived.
On Oct 23, 2006, Fairfield, Alabama, Officer Mary Smith was shot and killed while checking on a suspicious vehicle on Avenue H. Officer Smith had detained one subject and had placed him against the hood of her patrol car when another subject approached and opened fire on her.
One round struck her in the chest, just above her vest, fatally wounding her. A second officer who arrived on the scene moments later was shot in the leg.
On September 30, 2006, Montgomery Police Officer Keith Houts succumbed to a gunshot wound inflicted two days earlier while making a traffic stop on North Decatur Street, just a few blocks from police headquarters, at 12:45 pm. After shooting Officer Houts in the head, the killer shot him several times in the chest as he laid on the ground, but the shots were all stopped by his vest. Officer Houts was transported to Jackson Hospital where he remained in critical condition until succumbing to his wounds. The killer fled the area and was captured in McDonough, Georgia, by members of the United States Marshals Service. He was immediately extradited back to Montgomery and charged with capital murder. He was subsequently sentenced to death.
These are just 3 quick examples of "routine" contacts with people that wound up fatal for the officers.
So far in 2014, 58 officers have been murdered on the streets. This is by gunfire, assault and vehicular assault. There are more, but it would take in depth reading to determine if the deaths were felonious.
Also, remember, that someone's non-compliance with the law usually begins well before police contact. Officers cannot simply say "Oh, Mr Jones, I see that you do not want to be arrested, therefore you are free to go". They/we do have to be held accountable, but, the actions are to be judged by the "reasonable person standard". What would a reasonable person do.
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SSG Maurice P.
why do you think they use that technique,maybe in the hopes that you stop struggling perhaps hehehehehe roflmao yes i think that is the answer...
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This is definitely a situation in which excessive force was applied. Not only was it wrong on the part of the officer who actually did it, but there were so many other people present who should have stopped it. I think that punishment should be meted out, and to everyone involved, not only to Mr. Pantaleo.
Riots? I hope they don't happen. It will just overwhelm this man's death and become about rioting, and not whether this officer did the right thing or not. The tragedy will become the rioting and destruction, and no longer about his death.
Protests I think should definitely happen. I hope they happen. I want them to happen. There are a lot of police officers who think their word is law and will use whatever force necessary, particularly when it is unwarranted, to get their way. We need to get trust back between cops and communities. When these things happen and people walk away, it just widens the gap.
Riots? I hope they don't happen. It will just overwhelm this man's death and become about rioting, and not whether this officer did the right thing or not. The tragedy will become the rioting and destruction, and no longer about his death.
Protests I think should definitely happen. I hope they happen. I want them to happen. There are a lot of police officers who think their word is law and will use whatever force necessary, particularly when it is unwarranted, to get their way. We need to get trust back between cops and communities. When these things happen and people walk away, it just widens the gap.
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SSG (Join to see)
Hold or no hold, had the individual been compliant with the LEOs, he'd still be alive.
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SSG Jason Cherry
To address the chokehold issue:
choke·hold
a tight grip around a person's neck, used to restrain him or her by restricting breathing. -google definition
a method of holding someone by putting your arm around the person's neck with enough pressure to make breathing difficult or impossible -Merriam Webster's Dictionary
a restraining hold, as when one person encircles the neck of another from behind in a viselike grip with the arm. -Dictionary.com
NYPD Patrol Guide States: "Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."
The officer used a technique specifically banned by the department. By definition, it is a chokehold.
In any case, he should be dismissed from the NYPD because he will not be prosecuted for it.
The reason he will go unpunished is because of legal loopholes police fall into, given that they have no "duty of care". Because the police officers are not bound under "duty of care" they will never be indicted for situations like this, because the "duty of care" is essential in establishing a case for manslaughter. Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. Police don't have a duty to the victim, thus, they are not criminaly liable. So if a cop shoots a suspect, they can watch the suspect bleed out and die with no fear of recourse. They can chase down a suspect and watch them die from whatever the problem may be.
I don't think it is the right call, because its garbage that cops can kill without recourse, simply by not rendering aid when their actions have caused a condition leading to death. However, legally speaking, it was the right call not to indict the officer.
choke·hold
a tight grip around a person's neck, used to restrain him or her by restricting breathing. -google definition
a method of holding someone by putting your arm around the person's neck with enough pressure to make breathing difficult or impossible -Merriam Webster's Dictionary
a restraining hold, as when one person encircles the neck of another from behind in a viselike grip with the arm. -Dictionary.com
NYPD Patrol Guide States: "Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."
The officer used a technique specifically banned by the department. By definition, it is a chokehold.
In any case, he should be dismissed from the NYPD because he will not be prosecuted for it.
The reason he will go unpunished is because of legal loopholes police fall into, given that they have no "duty of care". Because the police officers are not bound under "duty of care" they will never be indicted for situations like this, because the "duty of care" is essential in establishing a case for manslaughter. Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. Police don't have a duty to the victim, thus, they are not criminaly liable. So if a cop shoots a suspect, they can watch the suspect bleed out and die with no fear of recourse. They can chase down a suspect and watch them die from whatever the problem may be.
I don't think it is the right call, because its garbage that cops can kill without recourse, simply by not rendering aid when their actions have caused a condition leading to death. However, legally speaking, it was the right call not to indict the officer.
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SSG Jason Cherry
The officer was not indicted for the very reason i specified. Police officers do not have duty of care, thus, they cannot be held criminally liable for deaths resulting from their actions. This is not my opinion, it is the law.
However, I think he will be heavily disciplined or dismissed from the force. I also think that the NYPD will settle out of court for a large sum of money, or lose in court for an even larger sum of money when a civil suit is brought against them.
That, is my opinion.
However, I think he will be heavily disciplined or dismissed from the force. I also think that the NYPD will settle out of court for a large sum of money, or lose in court for an even larger sum of money when a civil suit is brought against them.
That, is my opinion.
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I think what is more reprehensible is that not a single person administered First Aid or CPR. They just let him die.
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Wrong because the more I watch the video the more angry I become. When the guy is there dying then it seemed like it was time to consider how rough you need to be. For all the good cops and they are overwhelmingly good, this is not a how to video. In fact, this very medium of videos may have pushed the envelope of credulity.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SSgt (Join to see) I wish I could up vote you twice. This guy was screaming "I can't breath" and the cop kept choking him. He had no weapons and was being detained for selling cigarettes. I think many of these shootings (like Ferguson) have a lot of grey areas, but after watching this video, I see no grey. The guy was not a threat.
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I listened to the President, the Attorney General speak on this incident. And as in both incidents they speak thoroughly and exspensively about the need to rebuild trust and faith in law enforcement and asked for money to do this (federally).
However, not one time did I hear them speak up and inform the nation, that we are a nation of laws, the Police are the body of enforcement, and when the police give you directions...obey the police! That would not have cost anything to say, other than piss of the agitators, rioters and race baiters. I bet the 30 small business owners, city/state law enforcement and local governements would have appreciated it.
So once again, the administration took over media air time not to help bring calm to two greatly disturbing incidents impacting the entire nation, instead, they poured a little more fuel on the fire while trying to make look like they weren't!
Another great opportunity for the President to show leadership, character and integrity and even say "We have two incidents here where citizens failed to follow the instructions of Law Enforcement Officers and they ended tragically, where they could have been prevented had those 2 citizens, "obeyed the Police" and also say, "actions by law enforcement officers need to be looked at as well!" Instead what did he do, he folded his hand and passed the fuel can.
If I were the govenor (ha...that's a joke)...I would put up road blocks and shut down the airports if it took that to let the Attorney General understand, this is a local/State issue; They will be no Federal involvement in my state on either incident. It's our job to fix it, if we don't, the voters can fire us. Why...because the Attorney General is not looking for justice or solutions to move on from this incident.....on the President's orders they want to find a way to put on the blame on the White Police officers involved. No system is perfect, but ours is the best on this planet.
Kudos to the comments made by the Police Chief from Wisconcin
However, not one time did I hear them speak up and inform the nation, that we are a nation of laws, the Police are the body of enforcement, and when the police give you directions...obey the police! That would not have cost anything to say, other than piss of the agitators, rioters and race baiters. I bet the 30 small business owners, city/state law enforcement and local governements would have appreciated it.
So once again, the administration took over media air time not to help bring calm to two greatly disturbing incidents impacting the entire nation, instead, they poured a little more fuel on the fire while trying to make look like they weren't!
Another great opportunity for the President to show leadership, character and integrity and even say "We have two incidents here where citizens failed to follow the instructions of Law Enforcement Officers and they ended tragically, where they could have been prevented had those 2 citizens, "obeyed the Police" and also say, "actions by law enforcement officers need to be looked at as well!" Instead what did he do, he folded his hand and passed the fuel can.
If I were the govenor (ha...that's a joke)...I would put up road blocks and shut down the airports if it took that to let the Attorney General understand, this is a local/State issue; They will be no Federal involvement in my state on either incident. It's our job to fix it, if we don't, the voters can fire us. Why...because the Attorney General is not looking for justice or solutions to move on from this incident.....on the President's orders they want to find a way to put on the blame on the White Police officers involved. No system is perfect, but ours is the best on this planet.
Kudos to the comments made by the Police Chief from Wisconcin
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Cpl (Join to see)
Have you reviewed Sheriff Clarkes comments? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJc8z2L8p2Y
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After repeated viewing of the video and the repeated assertions from the deceased that he couldn't breathe, I do not believe that the grand jury got this one correct. Would really need to see the testimony from the grand jury to try and figure out how they arrived at their conclusion. I was in full agreement with the Ferguson decision based upon the testimony and evidence released following their decision, but not at all in this case.
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There are two types of choke holds; one stops blood from flowing to the brain and the other deprives you of the flow of oxygen, in which lack of either will cause one to pass out. NYC Cops are forbidden from my understanding of applying "choke" holds.
Seems t here was no injuries around the arties in the neck nor the wind pipe which would have caused unconciousness. Video does not show direct evidence of a choke hold being applied but more like a head lock, which would not bring about unconciousness.
Once again we are faced with 1-what do we think and decide to believe vs 2- what the evidence presented shows.
Either way, a very unfortunate incident and could have been presented.........if.......the law was not being broken. And even so, selling individual cigarrettes should not result in someone losing their life over. Next...Stop resisiting! Do not resist, I don't care how big or small you are....if cop says put hands up or behind your back ....JUST DO IT! When you cause the situation to escalate, the police also become attentive to their own safety (nothing wrong with that).
Right call or Wrong call........it was the call made by the Grand Jury! Instead of only focusing on the cops....let's also focus on the actions of the victim! Let's also ask, was he right or wrong! It's called pecularialry responsibility, meaning the victims actions had eminent responsibility for the events that occured.
Should he had died...NO! Were the officers at fault or wrong...not according to the grand jury. As in the case of Furgeson, MO. No one in the media, talking heads, Black Caucaus, Football players, race baiters, etc.....none will speak of the victims actions that led to the outcome!
Right call, wrong call!!!! The Grand Jury's verdict in both cases were based on something only those present in the courtroom has heard....and that was the evidence presented!
Individual feelings is NOT evidence!
Seems t here was no injuries around the arties in the neck nor the wind pipe which would have caused unconciousness. Video does not show direct evidence of a choke hold being applied but more like a head lock, which would not bring about unconciousness.
Once again we are faced with 1-what do we think and decide to believe vs 2- what the evidence presented shows.
Either way, a very unfortunate incident and could have been presented.........if.......the law was not being broken. And even so, selling individual cigarrettes should not result in someone losing their life over. Next...Stop resisiting! Do not resist, I don't care how big or small you are....if cop says put hands up or behind your back ....JUST DO IT! When you cause the situation to escalate, the police also become attentive to their own safety (nothing wrong with that).
Right call or Wrong call........it was the call made by the Grand Jury! Instead of only focusing on the cops....let's also focus on the actions of the victim! Let's also ask, was he right or wrong! It's called pecularialry responsibility, meaning the victims actions had eminent responsibility for the events that occured.
Should he had died...NO! Were the officers at fault or wrong...not according to the grand jury. As in the case of Furgeson, MO. No one in the media, talking heads, Black Caucaus, Football players, race baiters, etc.....none will speak of the victims actions that led to the outcome!
Right call, wrong call!!!! The Grand Jury's verdict in both cases were based on something only those present in the courtroom has heard....and that was the evidence presented!
Individual feelings is NOT evidence!
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SGT (Join to see)
The city’s medical examiner ruled Garner died as a result of the chokehold – a move which is banned by the NYPD – and declared his death a homicide.
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MAJ (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) I believe the autopsy showed that cause of death was due in part to tracheal compression. That's a choke hold, not a sleeper hold. As mentioned by SGT (Join to see), this technique is prohibited by NYPDs own rules.
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1SG (Join to see)
Yes sir, I had not read anything on the autopsy, but heard,(nothing to base it on) I had heard there was no damage to the wind pipe or neck area around the arteries. I really am not attempting to justify the actions of the officers, but trying to bring some focus that had their been no resistance the topic would still be Ferguson, and had there been no resistance by the victim in Ferguson, we all would be commenting on other topics instead of these.
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Since there is no "other" button, I am abstaining from voting on this. I am going to contemplate my response during my ride home, and then I will write it down and post it at some point this evening. Gonna take some noodling...
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SSG Leonard J W.
Good call, SGT Steve Vincent. I think I would hit the "other" button too, and I'm most likely going to stick with that. As MSG Brad Sand and MSG Wade Huffman discussed, we don't have all of the facts, and I'm sure glad that I'm not a cop. The media is having a field day with all of this unnecessary "black and white" citation. It doesn't matter what the race of the officer or the victim was.
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I want to see the legal definition of "Choke Hold" because if what was captured on tape IS NOT one, then my grandma really did get run over by a reindeer.
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SSG Robert Burns
I think about it like this. If he had done the same move to the cop, it'd be called a choke hold and he'd be charged with attempted murder. No doubt about it.
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