Posted on Dec 12, 2015
If Donald Trump is elected President, would it be more honorable to resign from service or to serve under his "leadership"?
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Responses: 147
MAJ Bryan Zeski, by the sounds of your question you have failed to truly understand what and who you are serving. You are serving to protect the peoples of the US and most importantly you are serving to protect the very document that gives us the law of the land and the rights of a free people, the Constitution. I served under Bush Sr., Clinton, W, and Obama. They all have their faults but that did not change how I looked and conducted business in uniform. I maintained focused on why I was there. Did I have my preferred CIC? Sure, everyone doe but, to give up because you disagree with whom the people's choice is pretty petty and weak. Both Bush Sr.And W. we're great for the military and national security but their ideas did have faults whether they knew it then . Clinton was good at getting our deficit under control but to what cost? The current occupant ran on "Hope and Change", well the change is in but there is no hope. The country is more divided now than anytime in history to include the 1940's when the government was collecting the legal immigrants from Japan, Italians, and Germany and placing them into "internment camps" or better known as concentration camps. The other time period was during the Civil Rights movement which as we all know, not a great time in our past. But to question whether to stay in because a business leader that does not play by the traditional political rules and he answers to only to himself is a worse fit than a community organizer with no leadership experience and has caused the widest divide in the nations history ever, maybe you should resign your commission. If you have that much doubt in your heart then you should be in a leadership position. That Sir is my professional opinion, not a personal opinion.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
The question was really more rhetorical, thus the reason I didn't say, "should *I*" do this or that. It was more a question of whether its better to willingly serve under a toxic leader, or to leave service.
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As many others have noted, your oath is to the constitution. If a US citizen, you have the right
to vote in the election of the President, Senators, and Congress Representatives. However once duly elected, you are obligated to follow the lawful orders of the chain of command appointed over you. Regardless whether of not you voted for a president or; whether or not you personally like or dislike the person in that office, you still are required to respect the office. As I have heard somewhere before, keep in mind after all that the job of president and all elected official is only a temporary job until the next election.
to vote in the election of the President, Senators, and Congress Representatives. However once duly elected, you are obligated to follow the lawful orders of the chain of command appointed over you. Regardless whether of not you voted for a president or; whether or not you personally like or dislike the person in that office, you still are required to respect the office. As I have heard somewhere before, keep in mind after all that the job of president and all elected official is only a temporary job until the next election.
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SCPO (Join to see)
Major: the operative word, especially under the present circumstances, has been "lawful." By his own admission, the current occupier of the White House has said in the past that the president had no Constitutional authority to do the things this guy has then done. Considering what he has done, nothing of which has had a direct impact on the military, must his unlawful activity be thus limited to strictly military matters before we are unbound from his orders, or can his misfeasance or malfeasance in office extend to issues of a domestic and economic nature, as well, perhaps foreign policy, before the military is, likewise, unbound? I realize this is mainly a rhetorical issue.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
The question was really more rhetorical, thus the reason I didn't say, "should *I*" do this or that. It was more a question of whether its better to willingly serve under a toxic leader, or to leave service.
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Seriously? You are going to ask that question when you've stated that those on active duty need to respect the office of the presidency? What I hear you asking goes against all the rhetoric you've been spewing over the current pResident.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
The question was really more rhetorical, thus the reason I didn't say, "should *I*" do this or that. It was more a question of whether its better to willingly serve under a toxic leader, or to leave service.
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SGT Chris Hill
Correct, but because you asked the question, it leads to the assumption that you personally are debating the idea yourself, which in turn, does raise a question as to why a senior officer publicly asks this. Not to say it's wrong of you to ask, but you're going to receive heat, being you're a senior leader.
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I don't get on RP too often, but this thread jumped out at me when I logged on today. I see the standard reply provided by the Major Bryan Zeski; it's a rhetorical question. That's not a great response and it certainly doesn't provide the writer any cover in my opinion. I would expect a first term enlisted soldier or 2LT to consider posing such a question, but not a Field Grade Officer. Rhetoric or not, I'd say the writer would serve his command properly by resigning his commission now. Please do so before you're put into another command position and allowed to influence others by virtue of your position. Your soldiers, unit, Army and our great nation deserve better!
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
I completely understand. Obey without thought, do without thinking. The old Army. Don't you think people should think about their leaders and who they want to elect and consider the implications of volunteering their service to leaders who don't hold the values of the nation as their own?
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1SG Larry Everly
The original question you posed impugned "honor". If Trump were elected and you resigned your commission, what honor have you earned from your peers and subordinates? Do you not owe them anything? Is there no loyalty to them? This so called "cut and run" mentality doesn't work. This same thing has happened to American families all across the nation through divorce or the simple fact that some mothers and fathers feel no obligation to their children. These are character flaws and your original question implies you might have some of these. Some of that "Old Army" or old family values of yesteryear need to be restored. Leaders lead, in spite of...
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SSG Michael Patton
1SG Larry Everly - Your comments are bulls eye on point. Very well expressed and I agree 100% I wish I could give you 10 thumbs up.
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SFC Chad Ambrose
1SG Larry Everly - 1SG Larry Everly you are surgically precise on this. In the original post the question posed appears more concerned with the "self," not "service". The rhetorical question, canned answer isn't fooling anyone.
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If I were still in the service, I would stay in. Although the President is Commander in Chief of the nation's armed forces, the questiona I would ask myself is who am I ultimately serving and why am I serving? And to honestly answer that question, which I did have to ask myself under Clinton, the answer was simple - while he WAS commander in chief, I was not serving for him, but because I love my country and I serve my country through my military service. In fact, I reenlisted while Clinton was president not because I believed in what he was doing, but that my military service to my country was BIGGER than any man (or woman) that would live in the White House.
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MSG (Join to see)
In my own experience (25 years active Army); the common hate for ones opinion of another in the military has been growing (again) and is as bad as the implied opinion the OP has demonstrated. The division of left/right in this country has grown exponentially each year since Reagan and now has become very personal to many folks. This has been going on longer than President Obamas time in office. The current Administration has definitely sped up the divisiveness and we can expect it to only continue if Trump gets elected. I learned early in my military career that religion and politics should have no influence or bearing on team building and the collective goals of mission success, even if presented as rhetoric.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
The question was really more rhetorical, thus the reason I didn't say, "should *I*" do this or that. It was more a question of whether its better to willingly serve under a toxic leader, or to leave service.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
If we can't question the rationality of serving under different leadership, we have lost the ability to think for ourselves and have become the lemmings that many people believe the military is.
We are encouraged to question and to incite others to question leadership possibilities. To not do so would be an abdication of our values of integrity, honor and personal courage.
We are encouraged to question and to incite others to question leadership possibilities. To not do so would be an abdication of our values of integrity, honor and personal courage.
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MAJ (Join to see)
"That I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter." Do that job especially if the guy on top is toxic.
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Your call to serve this nation shouldn't be solely determined based on who is president... Just an opinion only...
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MAJ Bryan Zeski - You would most likely have to become more pointed, as, my belief only, a query about "serving under a toxic leadership" alone would not encourage me to look beyond my "back yard". Your original question still indicate higher level which I believe is what you are looking for an answer to. With "Is it more honorable to serve under a toxic leader or to resign?" I think people would answer based on the leadership level that directly effect them as their "true" knowledge is there, as well as any personal investments that may also influence this decision. Besides, I really don't think our military leaders would lead us that far down the rabbit hole for such a toxic leader... I don't know about you, I'd definitely like to be AD for that history making event! LOL!
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SFC (Join to see)
MAJ Bryan Zeski
"If a person finds themselves serving a corrupt leadership and government... "
You don't seem to have a problem serving under this one.
"If a person finds themselves serving a corrupt leadership and government... "
You don't seem to have a problem serving under this one.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
SFC (Join to see) - Neither do you, apparently.
While I don't agree with everything the President has done, or will do, I do not believe that he is corrupting the country or selling it out to the highest bidder. If I did think corruption was overwhelming and irreconcilable, then leaving the service would make sense.
While I don't agree with everything the President has done, or will do, I do not believe that he is corrupting the country or selling it out to the highest bidder. If I did think corruption was overwhelming and irreconcilable, then leaving the service would make sense.
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IMHO this is not an either/or position.
Both decisions and courses of action are honorable.
Your course of action will depend upon your personal belief and value system. It will be up to the individual to decide which path to follow.
There are some things to carefully consider before making such a critical decision (if you are in a position where you have this option (e.g. not under a service obligation or enlistment commitment), as one is only rarely able to simply resign and walk away.
- Go back and read word for word the oath you swore, not what you think you remember swearing to, but the written oath. Remember, the oath is different for enlisted personnel vice officers/civilians. - Consider the words of the particular oath and your motivations VERY carefully, -- think before you act. Resignation for reasons of conscience is noble and honorable. However, once you make that decision and submit your paperwork. it tends to stick. Resignation is bell you may only ring once, -- if you must leave, ensure you are doing so for the right reason.
- If you decide to stay and serve, again remember your oath and live up to it. If you have issues with the person, focus on the position (office). Once an individual is elected to the office and sworn in, if you decide to stay in, then you must serve to the best of your ability, -- again remember the oath. To do less than your best because you do not like the individual serving in the office is not honorable.
Both decisions and courses of action are honorable.
Your course of action will depend upon your personal belief and value system. It will be up to the individual to decide which path to follow.
There are some things to carefully consider before making such a critical decision (if you are in a position where you have this option (e.g. not under a service obligation or enlistment commitment), as one is only rarely able to simply resign and walk away.
- Go back and read word for word the oath you swore, not what you think you remember swearing to, but the written oath. Remember, the oath is different for enlisted personnel vice officers/civilians. - Consider the words of the particular oath and your motivations VERY carefully, -- think before you act. Resignation for reasons of conscience is noble and honorable. However, once you make that decision and submit your paperwork. it tends to stick. Resignation is bell you may only ring once, -- if you must leave, ensure you are doing so for the right reason.
- If you decide to stay and serve, again remember your oath and live up to it. If you have issues with the person, focus on the position (office). Once an individual is elected to the office and sworn in, if you decide to stay in, then you must serve to the best of your ability, -- again remember the oath. To do less than your best because you do not like the individual serving in the office is not honorable.
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My political views have little relevance to my service. Unless something is a threat to The Constitution, I serve Commanders (including the CINC), that I may not agree with, but I serve faithfully and to the best of my ability.
I've never seen an officer (to my recollection its always an officer) that becomes derelict in their duties that wasn't wrong to do so...from the Army Physician in Desert Storm who refused to deploy, to the Officer who claimed our President (I didn't vote for the President, but he still IS my President and Commander in Chief) wasn't a legally elected official.
I've never seen an officer (to my recollection its always an officer) that becomes derelict in their duties that wasn't wrong to do so...from the Army Physician in Desert Storm who refused to deploy, to the Officer who claimed our President (I didn't vote for the President, but he still IS my President and Commander in Chief) wasn't a legally elected official.
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Seriously, people come and go (Trump could drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow) your honor and commitment is not to a person!!
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1stSgt Eugene Harless
I think his cause of death would be related to his hair attacking him or an adverse reaction to shampoo.
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