Posted on Jul 18, 2015
SGT Infantryman (Airborne)
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Something has to done and done soon. You can be assured the attack on the Marine and NAVY recruiters will happen again. I have no proof to back up my statement, but common sense should make you realize it will happen again. Our recruiters can't be left to be sitting ducks. They need to be armed. At least they have a chance at defending theirselves. Now for the story from American Thinker.

The terrorist organization known as ISIS has made it clear that a part of its jihadist war plan against America is carrying out so-called "lone wolf" attacks aimed primarily against members of our military and possibly their families. The attacks in Chattanooga by an apparent Islamic lone wolf are the latest result of that terror tactic. We can only guess as to what the future holds for American warriors and their families. We should not wait to find out.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/07/how_to_formally_arm_our_troops.html#ixzz3gIj9jTZo
Posted in these groups: Images SecuritySafe image.php TerrorismRefuse Self Defense
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Responses: 43
PO1 John Miller
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A few of the veteran FB pages I'm in have been discussing this. A few have suggested (and a few have implemented) a group of legally armed veterans standing guard at recruiting stations, observing applicable state laws.
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SGT Infantryman (Airborne)
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John, I'm sure you have a lot support from members in RP. Good luck my friend.
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
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Thanks brother!
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SGT Infantryman (Airborne)
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All my pleasure Sir. I'm glad you have guts enough to try something, anything.
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PO2 Skip Kirkwood
PO2 Skip Kirkwood
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How about making a handgun qual part of the recruiter schools?
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CPO Jon Campbell
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I will not be easy, but it should be done.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
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Edited >1 y ago
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I have some experience with planning for these types of situations (active shooters). I know that there is NO end-all, do-all solution. However, we need to evaluate a few things:

1. Force Protection (where appropriate). I think there's a lot to be said about Force Protection. I know it's not a simple solution, nor will it work in every situation, but to dismiss it without evaluation is lunacy.
2. Arm Service Members. The idea that men and women with combat experience aren't allowed to carry a sidearm is ludicrous. Would it be logistically horrendous to develop / institute an "open carry" type certification for service members?
3. Harden military targets. I despise the idea of surrendering more liberty for (more?) security. However, I can tell you - from years of experience in the commercial nuclear industry - that the use of metal detectors AND chem-sniffers WILL stop nearly ALL contraband-intrusion events. Yes, I know that's not logistically possible, but is there something in between that can increase protection without such drastic measures?

And remember, THIS bottle's been uncorked. Designing a security system to look for a shoe bomber or an underwear bomber is stupid.

Lastly - get rid of the dumb-ass "No Beretta M-9 / 92FS" signs.
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Cpl Christopher Bishop
Cpl Christopher Bishop
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If you want to harden these targets ... have them guarded by MSG Marines (read Embassy Guard trained). Its not enough to just toss some guns n ammo around, people need training, and I do mean recent/current. Convert these facilities into something more similar to an Embassy Lobby, where a minimum of 2 of them are on post during all business hours (if not 24/7).
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PO2 Steven Erickson
PO2 Steven Erickson
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I agree with your plan, Cpl Christopher Bishop. I wish we could convince "them who are not us" that it's the right thing to do - and worth the cost.

By the way... what IS the cost of 4 Marines and 1 Sailor? (Sorry... irreverent comment. Couldn't help it, though)
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
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PO2 Steven Erickson, I find the notion of a "hardened" recruiting office to be fundamentally at odds with the mission of recruiting offices -- not to mention that the reason for having them in these shopping centers is to make the recruiters easily accessible.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
PO2 Steven Erickson
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I would agree, 1LT William Clardy, that a Recruiting Office would NOT be a logical target to "harden." I had other facilities in mind (buildings on and off-base like PX, barracks and hospitals). The idea of ingress security / protection hardware in a mall is clearly at the far "How About No" end of "hey, let's do THIS..."
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Maj Mike Sciales
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I don't think arming everybody is the answer. We've got enough intra-service murders as it is. Weapons are restricted on Military bases for solid reasons. If we arm do we issue sidearms? Will killers then simply switch to rifles with scopes? Maybe bombs? In the 1970s domestic terrorists (Weather underground, SLA, Symbionese Liberation Army, George Jackson brigade and others) were wrecking havoc, blowing up recruiting booths, ROTC offices and the like. We didn't over react then like we are now. Our needs might be better served by identifying the source of the disaffection and working to treat it. This last killer's life was imploding. He'd lost his job, gotten a DUI arrest, was doing drugs. He was like Michael Douglas' character in "Falling down." It's tempting to over react, but that is only addressing "symptoms" and not the disease. Don't forget, a few weeks earlier in Tennessee a recruiter Guardsman got fired and he went psycho in the office. Didn't hear any call for arming recruiters then. We need to take a deep breathe and think hard.
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Cpl Jeff N.
Cpl Jeff N.
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PO3 Jody Wangen. Taking out an armed sentry when you are moving and shooting is not easy to do. If there are two or more sentries (which there usually are) it gets far more difficult to take them out. I am pretty confident in saying that the average Marine is far more skilled with their service weapon than the average radicalized college student/terrorist.

I wasn't suggesting we analyze anyone, that was a suggestion I countered as being impractical. What we might want to do is re-examine our immigration policies from the middle east. That is where these folks are coming from or are aligned with. We need to accept the brutal reality that there are many radicalized islamists that want to kill as many Americans as they can.
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SFC Joseph Weber
SFC Joseph Weber
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We could do like Gueda Springs Kansas and pass a law that every household had to have a gun since the Sumner County Sheriff could not get there very quickly. Arm everyone so maybe some of the innocents murdered by cops could have fought back.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
PO2 Robert Cuminale
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I read an article on Abdulazeez this morning. A person commented on the NRA's stance that the only a good guy with a gun is effective against a bad guy with a gun. She said it was a crock because there were no good guys with guns at Columbine, Sandy Hook or Aurora. I responded that there probably were but that all the locations she mentioned were "Gun Free Zones". Permitted gun owners obey laws. Those guns were probably left at home or in the car. Nothing kills people like a "Gun Free Zone". It provides a false sense of security. I remember the week after the Marathon bombing in Boston. The city was flooded with National Guardsmen and state police. The commander admitted that having all those personnel probably wouldn't do a lot of good but that it made people feel good. Is everything about optics anymore?
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Maj Mike Sciales
Maj Mike Sciales
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PO2 Cuminale: it is about optics. The sad fact is everyplace is a soft target. A crazy in Sydney took over a coffee shop, a nutter in Oklahoma went to his former place of employment. In France a guy attacked a grocery store. All the arming just drives people to an easier location. The bad guys want mayhem, they want people to unleash their own hatred and react badly. After 9-11 some patriotic murderers killed a Sikh working at a gas station in Mesa, AZ. They didn't know that Sikhs are not Muslims. People shout about killing ragheads or limiting immigrants, what a crock of nonsense. 13,000+ Americans were murdered in 2013. Was it terrorist suspects? No, just good Americans killing other good Americans, so why do we obsess with Muslims? Did anybody notice or even care that before the recent murders of those recruiters a Muslim charity raised $100,000 to rebuild some burned Black churches? Of course not. Americans only want to see foreign enemies and not the domestic ones and that's a great pity.
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PO1 Job Seeker
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Integrate a Quarter deck at all Navy and Marine Recruiting Stations and stand watch the same way it's done on a ship...side arm and shotgun. I'm sure we can afford to add a few Sailors and Marines to stand this duty all around the US. Let's make it happen quickly. We should not feel threatened on our own soil!!
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PO1 Job Seeker
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This doesn't mean we stop recruiting in small towns. It just means that we have to make Some kind of adjustments now until more solid solutions are available.
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PO3 Jody Wangen
PO3 Jody Wangen
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PO1 (Join to see) - I came from a small town. signed up in the library. did not have a car. have 6 cousins that did the same. small towns and poverty stricken areas are where most recruits come from. people with money generally do not see the military as a job option. their parents pay for college.
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PO1 Job Seeker
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Just to be clear. I agree however recruiting can still go on. It just has to be done differently. ....for example picking folks up and taking them to a larger facility where all can be safer. Just for now until a better solution is thought of. It takes time to come up with better options.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
PO2 Robert Cuminale
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PO3 Wangen, Things haven't changed since the days of the draft. The poor fought while the rich got deferments as long as they maintained a c average.
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SrA Edward Vong
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If recruiters were to be armed it may have to be so in a non-threatening manner. Having a weapon visibly strapped to the leg, or an M4 slung on the back doesn't seem like a good idea for marketing purposes.....even if the military is about defending the country.

Requiring concealed carry might not seem like a bad idea though, I know some recruiters operate outside of uniform anyway.
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MSgt Squad Leader
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Can't conceal carry in uniform, besides the point of having the visible weapon is deterrence.
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SrA Edward Vong
SrA Edward Vong
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Exceptions can always be made. And if I was an assailant, the first person I would aim for is the one with a visible biggest baddest gun.
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MSgt Squad Leader
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Unless we are talking about exceptions to concealed carry in uniform, which is a huge legal issue. And what you are discussing is military tactics in which going after the biggest weapon first is a valid point. However this scenario the target was a "soft target", if he was looking for a "hard target" he would have gone after a base.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
PO2 Robert Cuminale
>1 y
I've worn a soft inside the waist band holster for 20 years. I carry a S&W M&P 40 and you can't see it unless you look really hard. You have to wear the next wait size. I can draw it as fast as an exposed holster. Drawing practice is part of firearms training.
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SFC Rollie Hubbard
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Give them the weapons that they are used to. If the attackers have AK's give them M-4"
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MSgt J D McKee
MSgt J D McKee
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HELL, yes. If you are physically big yourself, like over 6 ft, a Beretta is just barely concealable. So most people would probably carry something else, meaning a private weapon if that was allowed. I don't think that's a good idea if they are in uniform. But an M4, why not? That would bring issues of theft, etc, but I absolutely hate it that we don't trust our ourselves enough to arm ourselves, how stupid. Take the damn chance, whoever the decision is up to.
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CW2 Tactical Air Control Party (TACP)
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MSgt J D McKee - Right? How much sense does this make:

Deployed - "Your firearm will be within arms reach at all times."

Stateside - "Absolutely no weapons while on duty."

Our enemy is cunning and constantly exploits this vulnerability. With the current threat of a faceless enemy, I believe it is imperative that these politically correct and obsolete restrictions be re-evaluated.
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Cpl Anthony Pearson
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Our military members should at the very least be allowed to own and carry a sidearm. It is ridiculous that American citizens can arm themselves, but our military personnel cannot.
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SGT Infantryman (Airborne)
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Cpl Anthony Pearson, That's so true. Our military are treated like Barney Fife when it comes to issuing arms to stateside members. It's cost five lives so far. How many does it take before something is done? I think about those men and women going to work everyday, probably wondering if their last. Nobody can do a responsible job with that constant thought on their minds. I haven't personally talked to any recruiters on duty, but I have talked to a Retired Marine Recruiter about it. He told me if it meant losing his job, with fines and/or penalties, for bringing a weapon to work, wouldn't stop him from doing it if it meant saving others lives and his.
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MSgt J D McKee
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Edited >1 y ago
You know, the US has a history of such stupidity, and not just on our own soil. Maybe someone who was there will refute this, really, I hope I saw it wrong and that was just for the landing, but I remember watching the Marines go ashore in 1983 Beirut, before the bombing which killed 241 US personnel, and noticing that NONE of their weapons had mags or assault packs on them, on the BBC news, anyway. By all means, let's don't offend anyone...someone please tell me, is it NORMAL for Marines to land on a hostile beach with unloaded weapons? Or were we depending on locals, who are all wonderful people and want us there?

If I were a recruiter, and wasn't armed before, I would be now and no one would see it. Worst case if one gets caught with an unauthorized weapon--bad for career. Worst case if one doesn't carry--death, dismemberment, dreck.
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CW2 Tactical Air Control Party (TACP)
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That's too easy, just look at what programs we have in place for another high-risk activity: motorcycles. Since the military will never sign off on just letting us carry, all we have to do is create a safety course. Once completed, give us a little laminated card that says we have completed the course and have been trained, and can carry our personal firearm on post. It's practically the same idea as what we do with motorcycles.
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