Posted on Dec 19, 2013
You Decide: Leave a Platoon Sergeant in Position if they fail an Army Standard?
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You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........<div><br></div><div>Leave him in position or remove him?</div><div><br></div><div>Defend your answer.</div>
APFT
Platoon Sergeant
ABCP
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 61
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<p>I love this quesiton because I had this discussion with my 1SG a few years back when one of my battle's was in this is exact position. I say move him immediately.</p><p>1. He's a leader. You lead by example and what is his example? His poor example will spread through his platoon. It will be very difficult for him to enforce anything.</p><p>2. That position is too competitive and sought after to have failures in it. There is absolutely no excuse to fail APFT or Body Comp at that level. This shows lack of discipline and diligence, both unfit for that position.</p><p>3. He has at least 4 squad leaders who should be able to step into that position the same day. The platoon should keep marching without a change step. If he repairs and no one has come in to replace him, its a great example for his troops to see that EVERYONE is held to the standard and at the same time, everyone can still repair after they screw up.</p><p>There's just no good reason to leave him.</p>
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SSG (Join to see)
I definitely agree with you SSG Burns. At that level, NCOs should know that if you're injured or have medical issues, you get a profile until your mission capable. That's part of being diligent. You also have to look at the whole person concept. Hopefully he was a good NCO that has been steadily mentoring his squad leaders to become PSGs in the future anyways. Just don't make it easy for them.
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SGT Richard H.
I agree with this AFTER SFC John Gates' questions have been answered. I would want to know what else may be going on, so any actions taken are appropriate. What if the guy actually needs medical care? He may need to be replaced, but not in a disciplinary way.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
This is exactly what I wanted to say, except that you probably said it better than I would have.
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I want to thank everyone for their responses. Really great feedback and some interesting comments/tangents.
- There is a great difference between being a SFC and a PSG, just like there is a great difference between being a SSG and a Squad Leader. There are different expectations for those in leadership positions - right or wrong, that's just the way it is. Not that it's zero tolerance or that there are unbelievably high expectations that only a few can meet. But, if you are in a leadership position, the expectation is that you currently are meeting the basic Army standards. I used APFT/ABCP as examples only, it should apply to everything expected of the leader.
- If you as a leader are flagged for failing an APFT, could you honestly grade on of your Soldiers on their APFT? Would that be hypocritical? If you don't have the moral authority to assess your Soldiers, how can you be a leader? Same as failing the ABCP. Could you honestly tape someone and let them know they don't meet the standard, knowing that you don't meet it either? Not meeting a standard and being in a leadership position places you in a precarious position that is best avoided.
- Bottom-line, I believe leaders must be meeting Army standards and if they aren't they cannot be effective and it creates a climate that you can be a leader in the Army and not meet standards. And honestly, that's what we're trying to protect here - the belief that it's ok not to meet standards.
- Now that I've expressed my opinion on whether or not they should be moved out of position, the question then becomes how do you do this? Is your goal to make an example because of their flagrant lack of regard for standards or is this a person that is great at everything else and you want them to be effective later on. I think this is where the "compassion/empathy" and regard for their specific situation comes in. Just as some said - are their medical issues? was this uncharacteristic? etc? If so, then, you need to be able to "remove" them in such a way that enables them to retain dignity and return to a leadership position once they meet standards.
- I don't think failing a standard should keep you from being a leader permanently, but it should keep you from being in a leadership position when you currently don't meet standards.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
I agree completely, CSM, just like a company command team might put a junior in charge of a squad over his/her senior for failing to meet army standards, I see the relief of a PSG as giving that person time to better him/herself. Once standard is again met, s/he can easily be reinstated, and no one has to know the reasoning behind that senior getting a "break" from the responsibilities of leadership, other than those who rate that NCO.
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Counseling for the first offense, duly noted on NCOER and if no improvement IAW regulation -- gone. Period. No ifs ands or buts. If that happens to me, I expect the same treatment. We do not have the luxury of a double standard.
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SSG (Join to see)
1SG Michael Blount You are right about how to handle the problem. I just wish that you were right about the double standards and same treatment. I wish that there was not and I am thankfully for leaders like your self that hold other leaders accountable but sadly there are many SNCO's that get away with that. Sad but true.
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