Height and Weight
Height and Weight
Posted on Aug 13, 2024
How should I write an NCOER bullet comment for an NCO who did not meet body fat standards and refuses to be on a weight control program?
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I have just been promoted to SFC and taken over a component repair platoon. One of my junior NCO's just retired; however, I found previous leadership did not do his 22-23 NCOER and I have his retirement NCOER ready for signatures. I knocked out his late one so that I can get his retirement NCOER done but it was returned for corrections. This NCO has chosen willing to not meet HT/WT, previous individuals never counseled him on this or put him into weight control program. For the bullet for failure to meet standards and comments of not choosing to be on or in weight control program how should I best word this bullet for his 22-23 and retirement NCOER?
Posted in these groups: 
NCOER
Height and Weight
NCOER Height and Weight
Posted 1 mo ago
Responses: 3
** Just reread your post ... you're doing two evaluations on him? There's some serious ball dropping going on with your unit's admin folks. However, the following would still apply to both evals.
The retirement evaluation is an optional one that frankly many raters/senior raters use to pad a profile unless it is needed post-retirement by the individual.
In other words, if the NCO retired two-years ago and hasn't been demanding to know the status of it, the impact will be likely be negligible so worrying about how your comments are going to be taken (are they too harsh? not harsh enough? etc.) really isn't an issue.
Some quick advice though:
• The lack of entry into the AWCP is a failure of the unit leadership, not the Soldier, so the lack of entry should not reflect on him or his evaluation.
• Stick to short factual statements regarding the HT/WT - "failed height and weight standards. No body composition measurements on file".
• If he did show by action or words that he had an attitude of "I don't care", then you can mention that "Failed height and weight standards due to lack of motivation" or a bit harsher of "Showed extreme lack of motivation as evidenced by failure to meet height and weight standards consistently"
The retirement evaluation is an optional one that frankly many raters/senior raters use to pad a profile unless it is needed post-retirement by the individual.
In other words, if the NCO retired two-years ago and hasn't been demanding to know the status of it, the impact will be likely be negligible so worrying about how your comments are going to be taken (are they too harsh? not harsh enough? etc.) really isn't an issue.
Some quick advice though:
• The lack of entry into the AWCP is a failure of the unit leadership, not the Soldier, so the lack of entry should not reflect on him or his evaluation.
• Stick to short factual statements regarding the HT/WT - "failed height and weight standards. No body composition measurements on file".
• If he did show by action or words that he had an attitude of "I don't care", then you can mention that "Failed height and weight standards due to lack of motivation" or a bit harsher of "Showed extreme lack of motivation as evidenced by failure to meet height and weight standards consistently"
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
SSG Roger Ayscue - Why is there even a reviewer? The only time I had a reviewer on AD is when i was in a joint unit and my raters weren't Army. Then I had to have a reviewer to have an Army person in the rating chain. Otherwise I haven't seen one before or after those two joint units.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - I can look up my past AD NCOERs; however, all the time I been in the Guard, every NCOER I have has a reviewer which is my commander right now.
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CSM William Everroad
SFC (Join to see) SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - You only need a reviewer if your SR is not a CPT or CSM. For Company Level, the CDR (O-3) is the reviewer.
It works out in a typical unit:
SGTs are rated by SSGs, SR by LT, Reviewed by the CDR
SSGs are rated by LT, SR by CDR (some units insert the PSG, in which case the rater is PSG, SR is LT, reviewer is still the CDR)
SFCs are rated by LT, SR by CDR
In all cases, every "company-level" NCO evaluations should have the CDR (O3) in the rating chain somewhere. AR 623-3 has more rank specific limits (such as SFCs cannot rate other SFCs) but it also indicates the rank required for SR and Reviewer requirements.
It works out in a typical unit:
SGTs are rated by SSGs, SR by LT, Reviewed by the CDR
SSGs are rated by LT, SR by CDR (some units insert the PSG, in which case the rater is PSG, SR is LT, reviewer is still the CDR)
SFCs are rated by LT, SR by CDR
In all cases, every "company-level" NCO evaluations should have the CDR (O3) in the rating chain somewhere. AR 623-3 has more rank specific limits (such as SFCs cannot rate other SFCs) but it also indicates the rank required for SR and Reviewer requirements.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
SFC (Join to see) - We often want the guard and reserves to be on the same level as AD but in reality their schools are often a fraction the length of AD schools and their time AD cementing soldier skills is so much shorter. Often if they do their MOS on the civilian side they are better at it then their AD peers.
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SFC (Join to see), not that you need it, but a couple bits of advice on your way to 1SG:
1. Audit your ABCP Manager's files and make sure the counselings are done. Review everyone on the program to ensure they are in compliance and making progress. The comment for the NCOER is, "enrolled in the ABCP and making satisfactory progress (or some other descriptive adjective to denote the extent of progress)" or "enrolled in the ABCP and is not making satisfactory progress" or "enrolled in the ABCP and is not in compliance, [insert reason not in compliance]". That last one is for NCOs who refuse, or miss, their required monthly weigh ins. Remember, it is in the counseling that it is the NCO's responsibility to coordinate their weigh in, not the ABCP manager.
2. Build a culture where you track counseling, not just completed reports. Have every NCO make you a delegate for all functions (rater, senior rater). Look into EES and check support forms, if there isn't one at the start of the rated period, you are your HR can initiate one and put the DODID for the rating chain. This will ensure they get an email about it.
3. Publish the rating scheme and have the Commander sign it monthly. Add it to your bistro to your NCOs. Include who's semi annual counseling's are due that month.
4. Every NCODP you conduct repeat the following: Support forms to be completed by the rated NCO 30 days before the THRU date, Rater and Senior Rater completes their portion of the the annual report 14 days before the THRU date, Senior Rater ensures NCO signs and then submits on the THRU date.
1. Audit your ABCP Manager's files and make sure the counselings are done. Review everyone on the program to ensure they are in compliance and making progress. The comment for the NCOER is, "enrolled in the ABCP and making satisfactory progress (or some other descriptive adjective to denote the extent of progress)" or "enrolled in the ABCP and is not making satisfactory progress" or "enrolled in the ABCP and is not in compliance, [insert reason not in compliance]". That last one is for NCOs who refuse, or miss, their required monthly weigh ins. Remember, it is in the counseling that it is the NCO's responsibility to coordinate their weigh in, not the ABCP manager.
2. Build a culture where you track counseling, not just completed reports. Have every NCO make you a delegate for all functions (rater, senior rater). Look into EES and check support forms, if there isn't one at the start of the rated period, you are your HR can initiate one and put the DODID for the rating chain. This will ensure they get an email about it.
3. Publish the rating scheme and have the Commander sign it monthly. Add it to your bistro to your NCOs. Include who's semi annual counseling's are due that month.
4. Every NCODP you conduct repeat the following: Support forms to be completed by the rated NCO 30 days before the THRU date, Rater and Senior Rater completes their portion of the the annual report 14 days before the THRU date, Senior Rater ensures NCO signs and then submits on the THRU date.
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SFC (Join to see)
CSM, once I got back with my current unit as the platoon sergeant, I went into readiness on my own to work with readiness to rebuild the rating scheme because I was wanting to know who my rater and senior rater were. I have also started all support forms for my NCOs who are under me because I do not want to wait till last minute to get NCOERs worked. I know I keep up on my support form and tried to foster that into my juniors, but it is getting to point where I will have to counsel my juniors, hopefully in positive note, to keep track of their careers so it is not a struggle for my side of admin things.
I am also trying to develop some NCODP stuff for my platoon time; however, with how guard drills are short and sweet and tasked to do a hundred things before COB not always easy. Probably will have to do one to two Joes at a time to show them things. Also, retention is low, and I have a few newly promoted SGTs and one-year transfers who do not want to stay in. Luckily, I did get my Sheetmetal section sergeant to reenlist.
I am also trying to develop some NCODP stuff for my platoon time; however, with how guard drills are short and sweet and tasked to do a hundred things before COB not always easy. Probably will have to do one to two Joes at a time to show them things. Also, retention is low, and I have a few newly promoted SGTs and one-year transfers who do not want to stay in. Luckily, I did get my Sheetmetal section sergeant to reenlist.
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CSM William Everroad
SFC (Join to see) - All that extra work is why you get paid an extra $2 per UTA. On a serious note, I get the issues, it is tough to be a senior NCO in Compo 2&3. Track your time outside of BA and make sure you submit 1380s for Points. It may not seem like much now, but over the course of the rest of your career, it adds up.
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SFC (Join to see)
CSM, I work at the facility my unit drills at. So, I am able to accomplish some things when I do not have maintenance going on. I thank you for the info on the points but I already have a good fair share of points since I was previously AD for 14 years with 14 deployments and transitioned to Guard in fall of 2014 with no break in service, also with one deployment with the Guard.
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Let me point something out that you said:
previous individuals never counseled him on this or put him into weight control program
Yet it is his fault? His leadership were failures and somehow you expect something different form him.
previous individuals never counseled him on this or put him into weight control program
Yet it is his fault? His leadership were failures and somehow you expect something different form him.
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SFC (Join to see)
Never said it was his fault for not being on the ABCP; however, it is his fault for allowing out of control weight gain. I have known this individual from previous years in the unit. From the time I saw him to when I saw him again, he literally became a ballon. For his body size, initially a what 32-inch waistline or such. Then when I saw him again, he is nearly a 45-inch waistline. Yes, there is fault on command and leadership for not putting him on a weight control program, as well his fault for allowing his weight to get out of control. From my time in the Guard versus AD, there are guard members who near their service time, truly do not give a damn and will let all things go. Then again, the unit holds onto them even if flagged or counseled to keep numbers.
This is why in my tenure; I want to change this mindset and be there for the solider and do the right thing and protect the unit from wrong.
However, for my above situation I am trying to fix previous leadership issues for failing to complete the NCO's NOCER and I am trying to understand the right bullet wordage and format to be fair and equal in treatment.
This is why in my tenure; I want to change this mindset and be there for the solider and do the right thing and protect the unit from wrong.
However, for my above situation I am trying to fix previous leadership issues for failing to complete the NCO's NOCER and I am trying to understand the right bullet wordage and format to be fair and equal in treatment.
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SGT (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - So what is your medical degree in. What, you do not have one. You just assume that there may not be a medical reason for the weight gain. Plus you do not even want to find out. There are several diseases that cause weight gain that are also life treatingyet you assume that is not the case . So him being ONE OF YOUR JUNIOR NCO's what have you done to eliminate possible medical reasons for the weight gain. Nothing! You know have presented no evidence other than your personal dislike for the individual as justification for a negative NCOER.
Of course you make no mention or provide information that the individual was ordered into the program.
You provide no evidence that the individual was counseled for failing to meet height and weight standards or for not participating in a program they were ordered to take. In fact you present no evidence of such an order was given. It stands to reason if said order was given and not followed there would be counseling, an Article 15 for disobeying an order leading to being chapterd out. none of that exists. What exists is your personal
prejudice against said individual.
In conclusion
Your response to me shows me that you have a unjustified personal bias against this individual.
You have presented none other than your own personal Bias against this individual which is telling in a SFC. It tells me your leadership skills are lacking at a minimum and due to your personal bias you should not be writing this NCOER.
You cannot blame a soldier for screwing up if their leaders are screwups as we see here in your post.
My views on Leadership are quite simple. If your people are phuck-ups then you as the leader are pfucked-up. It's simple. People are always a reflection of their leader.
Of course you make no mention or provide information that the individual was ordered into the program.
You provide no evidence that the individual was counseled for failing to meet height and weight standards or for not participating in a program they were ordered to take. In fact you present no evidence of such an order was given. It stands to reason if said order was given and not followed there would be counseling, an Article 15 for disobeying an order leading to being chapterd out. none of that exists. What exists is your personal
prejudice against said individual.
In conclusion
Your response to me shows me that you have a unjustified personal bias against this individual.
You have presented none other than your own personal Bias against this individual which is telling in a SFC. It tells me your leadership skills are lacking at a minimum and due to your personal bias you should not be writing this NCOER.
You cannot blame a soldier for screwing up if their leaders are screwups as we see here in your post.
My views on Leadership are quite simple. If your people are phuck-ups then you as the leader are pfucked-up. It's simple. People are always a reflection of their leader.
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SFC (Join to see)
Seem like you are the assuming things. I am a big guy myself, I do not look it but I am 280. By Army standards I am obese but again I can also run a 14 minute 2-mile and have recorded faster.
Also, looking at the NCO.s records he used to be 23% body fat. Before I was promoted out of the unit, he was leaner and did keep himself trim. He is not 35% body fat and has siginigifcally increased his waistline. I am also MFT qualified and have seen what medical conditions are and are not. This NCO has chosen to not worry about his waist or PT. He also has chosen to not take a PT test by looking at his records because he does not want to do an ACFT or another PT test because he was retiring. Basically, short timer syndrome and truly did not care.
In my conclusion, I do not have bias because I know firsthand what is like to be a big guy and be harassed by body fat percentage, body taping and as well, dealing with the requirements for DOT physical for trucking, in which DOT physical requires the opposite of being strong and built.
It also does not require a medical degree to see when a person does not care anymore. This NCO has no profile whatsoever, no faults getting through medical. He simply has chosen to stop and quit.
One other thing, when I was a younger NCO in the guard, I have seen other junior soldiers who did not care one bit about their fitness. Not trying on a pt test and quitting after the first event.
So DO NOT DARE call me names, when you have not walked in my shoes!! I strive to give everyone a chance, I strive to promote for my juniors, there is a point where a person does not care anymore and all you can do is follow the book. I am fixing the issues of the faults of the past in this unit and making sure all of my platoon is counseled for any failings and such. I am covering my back since I was screwed over in the past many a times!
Also, looking at the NCO.s records he used to be 23% body fat. Before I was promoted out of the unit, he was leaner and did keep himself trim. He is not 35% body fat and has siginigifcally increased his waistline. I am also MFT qualified and have seen what medical conditions are and are not. This NCO has chosen to not worry about his waist or PT. He also has chosen to not take a PT test by looking at his records because he does not want to do an ACFT or another PT test because he was retiring. Basically, short timer syndrome and truly did not care.
In my conclusion, I do not have bias because I know firsthand what is like to be a big guy and be harassed by body fat percentage, body taping and as well, dealing with the requirements for DOT physical for trucking, in which DOT physical requires the opposite of being strong and built.
It also does not require a medical degree to see when a person does not care anymore. This NCO has no profile whatsoever, no faults getting through medical. He simply has chosen to stop and quit.
One other thing, when I was a younger NCO in the guard, I have seen other junior soldiers who did not care one bit about their fitness. Not trying on a pt test and quitting after the first event.
So DO NOT DARE call me names, when you have not walked in my shoes!! I strive to give everyone a chance, I strive to promote for my juniors, there is a point where a person does not care anymore and all you can do is follow the book. I am fixing the issues of the faults of the past in this unit and making sure all of my platoon is counseled for any failings and such. I am covering my back since I was screwed over in the past many a times!
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