Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 691
For those who chose not serve and stuck around to face the music. I disagree, but respect.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
For those that avoided service, but used the rules to do it. I don't like it, but harbor no ill will. "The rules is the rules."
For those that ran, they made a choice and they should live by their choice. I don't like them standing on American soil, breathing American Air, and enjoying American freedom. I forgive, but do not forget. I don't go looking for a pissing contest, but If they bring up the subject, I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. As far as I am concerned, they are not to be trusted.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
Maj John Bell -
There Ya Go AGAIN, Major;
Reiterated About As I'd Stated.;
But I Disapprove Of Both.
And As For Being Concerned About The FBI Showing Up?
YAH ~ Uh ~ Why Would That Be? I'd Be At Trump's Funeral
If For Nothing Else ~ Just To Take A Leak On His Grave.
Most Of Us Have Already Noticed Major: Although You Post Very Little,
You Always Show-Up To Criticize The Comments Of The Others.
Is It A Hobby Or Just A Bad Habit?
There Ya Go AGAIN, Major;
Reiterated About As I'd Stated.;
But I Disapprove Of Both.
And As For Being Concerned About The FBI Showing Up?
YAH ~ Uh ~ Why Would That Be? I'd Be At Trump's Funeral
If For Nothing Else ~ Just To Take A Leak On His Grave.
Most Of Us Have Already Noticed Major: Although You Post Very Little,
You Always Show-Up To Criticize The Comments Of The Others.
Is It A Hobby Or Just A Bad Habit?
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Maj John Bell
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - When someone puts very little thought into their comments, I'm more than happy to criticize. There was no substance to your comment just you giving vent to your distaste for President Trump.
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I agree with you that I want men and women serving that are joining of their own free will. I do not agree with you that a draft is slavery. I volunteered and knew that I would be going to Vietnam. I never gave any thought to draft dodgers. What bothered me were the scum bags that greeted me at LAX when I returned from Vietnam. They tried to block my way, asked me how many babies had I killed, told me to repent for my sins, etc. I was in uniform flying military standby. One of the hardest things that I have ever done, was not confronting these scum bags.
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1SG Mark Rodgers
SSgt James Jones - There is a yes and a No in both statements! Can you walk away when drafted? No. The next question is of same thought.. Just think about the parallel!
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SP6 Greg Jetter
agree 100% , in 72 the war was ending , i was returning home from basic training in uniform , got harassed the same at the airport. These assholes are now running the government .
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
1SG Mark Rodgers -
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
...."Can you walk away when drafted? No."
But I'd Suggest He Learn The Canadian National Anthem. (;-)+
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As a Viet Nam era enlistee I chose to enlist. I didn't run off to Canada. I am admittedly more upset with folks like Kerry & McCain that embellished their own record, profited from it and have become national embarrassments. Lack of information is the biggest enemy. If the reasons were legitimate I have no problems with deferments.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CSM Thomas Ray -
One Of The Things About "Bone Spurs" Many Are NOT Aware Of Is
"When One HAS Bone Spurs, The Area Can Be Numbed With An Injection
And Massaged Off The Bony Area." ~ BUT It's Been Stated By The 2 Daughters Of The Doctor, Whom DID Trumps Diagnosis, "He Had NO Bone Spurs, Their Father Was Paid By Fred Trump To Report It As Such, To Have His Son Donald, Deferred From Serving,~ On FIVE (5) Different Occasions: ~~ READ As FOLLOWS ~
~~~~~~Dr. Elysa Braunstein and Sharon Kessel — the daughters of Dr. Larry Braunstein, who died in 2007 — say their father was one of Fred Trump’s tenants at the time, setting up his podiatry practice in the Trump-owned Edgerton Apartments in Jamaica, Queens. Though they are unsure whether their dad actually examined the then 22-year-old Donald Trump, the sisters say that he often spoke of signing off on the diagnosis that kept Trump out of the war. The doctor also gave them the impression that Trump didn’t actually have bone spurs, but he said otherwise to help keep him out of the draft, they say.
“I know it was a favor,” Braunstein told the New York Times, noting her father’s cordial relationship with Trump’s real estate developer father.
“What he got was access to Fred Trump,” she added. “If there was anything wrong in the building, my dad would call and Trump would take care of it immediately. That was the small favor that he got.”
The sisters say they recall their father’s friend and fellow podiatrist, Dr. Manny Weinstein, was also somehow involved with the bone spur diagnosis. Weinstein died in 1995.~~~~
One Of The Things About "Bone Spurs" Many Are NOT Aware Of Is
"When One HAS Bone Spurs, The Area Can Be Numbed With An Injection
And Massaged Off The Bony Area." ~ BUT It's Been Stated By The 2 Daughters Of The Doctor, Whom DID Trumps Diagnosis, "He Had NO Bone Spurs, Their Father Was Paid By Fred Trump To Report It As Such, To Have His Son Donald, Deferred From Serving,~ On FIVE (5) Different Occasions: ~~ READ As FOLLOWS ~
~~~~~~Dr. Elysa Braunstein and Sharon Kessel — the daughters of Dr. Larry Braunstein, who died in 2007 — say their father was one of Fred Trump’s tenants at the time, setting up his podiatry practice in the Trump-owned Edgerton Apartments in Jamaica, Queens. Though they are unsure whether their dad actually examined the then 22-year-old Donald Trump, the sisters say that he often spoke of signing off on the diagnosis that kept Trump out of the war. The doctor also gave them the impression that Trump didn’t actually have bone spurs, but he said otherwise to help keep him out of the draft, they say.
“I know it was a favor,” Braunstein told the New York Times, noting her father’s cordial relationship with Trump’s real estate developer father.
“What he got was access to Fred Trump,” she added. “If there was anything wrong in the building, my dad would call and Trump would take care of it immediately. That was the small favor that he got.”
The sisters say they recall their father’s friend and fellow podiatrist, Dr. Manny Weinstein, was also somehow involved with the bone spur diagnosis. Weinstein died in 1995.~~~~
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CSM Thomas Ray -
DID PRESIDENT BIDEN GET ANY DRAFT DEFERMENTS?
~~
Prior to the election, rumors began to circulate on Facebook that Biden had deferred the draft on a number of occasions during the Vietnam War. The post went viral in part because conservatives saw it as a way to rebut Democratic claims that former President Trump had dodged the draft. Biden, who was born in 1942, could have been drafted into service in the war.
Although he was the right age, Biden never served because he received a number of deferrals from the draft during his time in college. He first received deferrals while an undergraduate at the University of Delaware, and later during his time in law school at Syracuse University. Biden eventually received a medical exam in 1968, after which he received a "1-Y" classification.
That classification meant that Biden could not be drafted unless there was a national emergency. In 2008, when Biden was seeking the presidency in the Democratic primary, he released his selective service record to the press. At the time, his records said that he was disqualified from service because of asthma that he suffered from as a teenager.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now For TRUMP~~~~~~~~~~
Although neither Biden or Trump personally served in the military the issue of respect for the military dominated a large chunk of the 2020 presidential campaign. The issue stemmed largely from comments that Trump had reportedly made that many felt were disrespectful to the millitary. In reporting from The Atlantic, Trump said that those who died in the military were "losers" and "suckers."
The Biden campaign used those comments to suggest that Trump didn't have the respect for military service that was necessary to serve as commander in chief. It was just one of many issues that were raised over the course of a long and brutal campaign, and it's unclear if any one issue, including the coronavirus pandemic, proved to be decisive in Trump's ultimate defeat in November. Still, his comments about the military probably didn't help him.
DID PRESIDENT BIDEN GET ANY DRAFT DEFERMENTS?
~~
Prior to the election, rumors began to circulate on Facebook that Biden had deferred the draft on a number of occasions during the Vietnam War. The post went viral in part because conservatives saw it as a way to rebut Democratic claims that former President Trump had dodged the draft. Biden, who was born in 1942, could have been drafted into service in the war.
Although he was the right age, Biden never served because he received a number of deferrals from the draft during his time in college. He first received deferrals while an undergraduate at the University of Delaware, and later during his time in law school at Syracuse University. Biden eventually received a medical exam in 1968, after which he received a "1-Y" classification.
That classification meant that Biden could not be drafted unless there was a national emergency. In 2008, when Biden was seeking the presidency in the Democratic primary, he released his selective service record to the press. At the time, his records said that he was disqualified from service because of asthma that he suffered from as a teenager.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now For TRUMP~~~~~~~~~~
Although neither Biden or Trump personally served in the military the issue of respect for the military dominated a large chunk of the 2020 presidential campaign. The issue stemmed largely from comments that Trump had reportedly made that many felt were disrespectful to the millitary. In reporting from The Atlantic, Trump said that those who died in the military were "losers" and "suckers."
The Biden campaign used those comments to suggest that Trump didn't have the respect for military service that was necessary to serve as commander in chief. It was just one of many issues that were raised over the course of a long and brutal campaign, and it's unclear if any one issue, including the coronavirus pandemic, proved to be decisive in Trump's ultimate defeat in November. Still, his comments about the military probably didn't help him.
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CPL Joe Brown
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney - I concur about cadet bone spurs...it was a cheap shot below the belt to those of us that had to go.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
CPL Joe Brown -
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
I Wasn't DRAFTED ~~ I ENLISTED On My 17th Birthday 06/29/1961 ~
~One Of My Best Decision Ever~ Changed My Life For The Better, And Were It NOT For The PAY, It Would Have Been My Career Of Choice. My TOP Pay ~ Overseas In South Korea ~ $173.00 Per MONTH. ~ Even The Counter Help At McDonald's Pays 3 - 4 Times As Much ~~ I've Even Known, The Ranks From E-5 On Down, With Families ~~ On Social Services For Enough To Survive On.~~ Just "Not My Cup Of Tea"...
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