Posted on Feb 19, 2014
You can't "smoke" soldiers anymore. So... More article 15s?
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<p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">It's copied and pasted from APRT.COM but it's all there in the FM </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">FM 7-22 Para 5-15. When exercise is used for corrective training or corrective action, it is often performed incorrectly, promoting </span><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html"><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><u><font color="#0000ff">overtraining syndrome</font></u></span></a><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">, and overuse injuries. Often corrective action mimics “smoke sessions,” punishing Soldiers with little or no corrective value. Consideration must be given to the number of times per day exercises are used for corrective action for individual Soldiers and groups of Soldiers to avoid the cumulative effect and limit the potential for overtraining syndrome. The following guidelines should be followed when employing exercise as corrective action.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only the following exercises should be selected for performance of corrective action.<br> Rower.<br> Squat bender.<br> Windmill.<br> Prone row.<br> Push-up.<br> V-up.<br> Leg tuck and twist.<br> Supine bicycle.<br> Swimmer.<br> 8-count push-up.</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Only one of the above exercises may be selected for each corrective action. The number of repetitions should not exceed FIVE for any one of the exercises listed above</span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">So there are only a few different options here, since making a soldier do 5 reps is a joke, and wont teach anything. </span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;"><br></span></p><p><span style="line-height: 17px; font-size: 14px;">Does that mean we should just write up 4856's for everything wrong a soldiers does? I understand the Army's worried about hazing, but taking away an effect means as punishment and leaving us with the only option to write up soldiers. </span></p><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.armyaprt.com/images/APFT-logo.png"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html" target="_blank">Army Overtraining Syndrome</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Causes Of Overtraining Syndrome And Overuse Injuries. Safe progression for performance improvement is complex, involving many variables that impact success</div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>
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Article 15
Article 15
Posted >1 y ago
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SGT A, while the regulation states you can only do 5 REPITITONS that doesn't mean you can't have the Soldier stand up at Attention/At Ease then do the exercise again. It is legal and it DOES work. In addition, with the exception of the 8-count push-up, all the ther exercises are done as a 4-count exercise, therefore they are actually doing 10 push-ups.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Redondo
It also says only one exercise from the list and five reps for ever corrective action. Which can easily be seen as you can only make them do 5 reps for each infractions.
I just think it would be kinda funny to see someone get mad and yell out "five windmills NOW!" and according the FM that's the extent of the corrective training.
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I'm not sure why you claim you can't smoke soldiers anymore if there are specific exercises to be used. Or why that means you should article 15 them rather than do the outlined exercises. I wanna say since my joining in 2004 I've seen maybe 10 instances where article 15/NJP was the proper course of action, meaning the infraction was severe enough that a mark needed to be made on their record.
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SGT (Join to see)
Technically yes, by UCMJ rules, but I suppose it is situational and up to the NCO involved. If the soldier was being smoked for something legitimate like being late or refusing an order and then refused to get smoked then it's a matter of non-compliance all the way around and they need counseling and possibly UCMJ action.
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The article itself is all over the place with various links. Next, the punishment has to fit the crime. Use your imagination. Hands in their pockets, how does "smoking" someone fix that? It won't, so what would work? A presentation to the rest of the platoon on the need for appearance is a possible alternative. The benefit is you give the soldier the chance to present in public, which survey say people are the most afraid of...public speaking. You want to see them get antsy, this will do it.
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An incident happened a few year's ago , and pretty much to make a long story short we were given authorization to leave early and report the next day, and during our formation the following day we were told that since we were not being and team and leaving with everyone else we will do extra curricular activities to learn to be a team . It resulted in some serious permanent damage to myself and i need some advice . [login to see] my other question's are more detailed , but I feel like I've hit a brick wall.
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NCOs don't Punish. They do corrective training. If what you are having the soldier do is relative to the offense then yes it is corrective training. So let's say you have a soldier that is constantly late you could have them show 20 mins early to every formation until them being late is no longer an issue.
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I entered the US Army in the 90's and I believe myself to be moral, ethical, and professional. I became this because my leaders when I began in the military enforced a strong policy of respect and discipline. When I made a poor decision, I was made to do push-ups. Why? Because it invokes a memory to the unprofessional behavior; albeit, a physically painful and mildly embarrassing one. I learned to behave more professionally from it. If I failed to call attention or at-ease when a superior entered the room: push-ups. If my uniform was not proper or my haircut was not standard: more push-ups. It instills discipline and it is immediate correction.
Today, in our Army, with all due respect to our CSM's and 1SG's, you are wrong! For serious offenses that warrant corrective training that fit the offense, I may agree to essays or training that teach the proper method. However, Soldiers have a complete lack of discipline in the Army. And, it's because our confusion of what is considered "hazing" compared to "on-the-spot correction and re-education". Granted, there have been leaders out there that have abused their military authority by inflicting unnecessary punishment on Soldiers for their own amusement which is agreeably hazing. However, due to those (un)professionals, lawmakers and weak senior leadership have inflicted a plague upon our military preventing us and tying our hands from properly instilling discipline. The Soldiers now own the Army and the leaders have become requestors, asking Soldiers to complete tasks in fear of being falsely reported for hazing, harassment, or unethical activity. If they legitimately screw up, they will face administrative action that might become a reality in 6 months only if the officers do their part. But, in reality, the senior officer will credit the fault to the leadership and the Soldier will go free without reprisal.
Article 15s? They are few and far between. Everyone gripes about how the good Soldiers are getting out early, and the shamm-baggers are staying in. That's because our leadership continues to ignore the problem. The shammers know how to get by, and the good Soldiers are tired of doing twice and trice the work.
Right now, I'm writing an open ended essay on if our military is better or worse now after "anti-hazing" legislation has restricted our leadership. This forum being open for discussion 2 years ago answers that question. Our leadership has become a bunch of "yes" men to congress and senate officials where those officials do not understand what it means to be a Soldier. I am proud of my heritage, and I'll be retiring at 20 years knowing I was not one of those "yes" men.
Today, in our Army, with all due respect to our CSM's and 1SG's, you are wrong! For serious offenses that warrant corrective training that fit the offense, I may agree to essays or training that teach the proper method. However, Soldiers have a complete lack of discipline in the Army. And, it's because our confusion of what is considered "hazing" compared to "on-the-spot correction and re-education". Granted, there have been leaders out there that have abused their military authority by inflicting unnecessary punishment on Soldiers for their own amusement which is agreeably hazing. However, due to those (un)professionals, lawmakers and weak senior leadership have inflicted a plague upon our military preventing us and tying our hands from properly instilling discipline. The Soldiers now own the Army and the leaders have become requestors, asking Soldiers to complete tasks in fear of being falsely reported for hazing, harassment, or unethical activity. If they legitimately screw up, they will face administrative action that might become a reality in 6 months only if the officers do their part. But, in reality, the senior officer will credit the fault to the leadership and the Soldier will go free without reprisal.
Article 15s? They are few and far between. Everyone gripes about how the good Soldiers are getting out early, and the shamm-baggers are staying in. That's because our leadership continues to ignore the problem. The shammers know how to get by, and the good Soldiers are tired of doing twice and trice the work.
Right now, I'm writing an open ended essay on if our military is better or worse now after "anti-hazing" legislation has restricted our leadership. This forum being open for discussion 2 years ago answers that question. Our leadership has become a bunch of "yes" men to congress and senate officials where those officials do not understand what it means to be a Soldier. I am proud of my heritage, and I'll be retiring at 20 years knowing I was not one of those "yes" men.
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so... no more making the walls cry? Lol jokes aside, there is a time and place to "smoke" a Soldier. Leader's have to have (not should have) more than one leadership style and more than one means of instilling discipline in their Soldiers.
I think throughout my career I have smoked a total of 3 Soldiers, and 2 of them were with the Soldier's agreement in lieu of me recommending them for Article 15. The last was me speaking to the Soldier while he held a half pushup, or a v situp. In all three cases I made sure I wasn't emotional about the situation, though I'm not sure how successful that was.
I think throughout my career I have smoked a total of 3 Soldiers, and 2 of them were with the Soldier's agreement in lieu of me recommending them for Article 15. The last was me speaking to the Soldier while he held a half pushup, or a v situp. In all three cases I made sure I wasn't emotional about the situation, though I'm not sure how successful that was.
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Pussification of America, now we have the pussification of the Army. Life In "leg land".
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Go figure. I mean no slight to anyone currently serving active duty, but I am glad I parted from the Army when I did. It was getting to Politically Correct by 2001, which was my last year in the ARNG. Now it seems like its deliberately done to destroy combat effectiveness by emasculation of the entire force, top to bottom. Between this and soldiers being discharged for their Christian faith, the promotion of homosexuality, transgender personnel, women in the infantry, etc etc.
The REAL shame is the career officers who institute these destructive changes instead of fighting for what they know is best for combat readiness. I understand not wanting to squander 15 years of a career when they will just fire you and make someone else implement it.
I fear for our country. I believe we are in the most danger as a country as we have ever faced, and the enemy is within.
The REAL shame is the career officers who institute these destructive changes instead of fighting for what they know is best for combat readiness. I understand not wanting to squander 15 years of a career when they will just fire you and make someone else implement it.
I fear for our country. I believe we are in the most danger as a country as we have ever faced, and the enemy is within.
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I was never a real fan of "smoking" as the article puts it. I did however believe in "on the spot corrective action, in lieu of paperwork" or "scheduled counseling in lieu of paperwork."
As an example.
I had a young Marine who was constantly running late. A few minutes here, a few minutes there. Now, we all know "one offs" happen, but this was getting to be an issue.
So I scheduled a Saturday counseling session with him. His required equipment was a bucket and his E-tool. Appointed place of duty was base of the hill in Camp Horno at 0800.
We meet there, and I tell him the plan for the day. From where we are to the top is just under a mile. At 0830 he is to meet me with a full bucket of dirt. For me, it's a nice leisurely stroll. For him, with a full bucket, not so much.
He gets there at probably 0825~ and at 0830, I repeat the plan of the day. 0900 base of the hill with a fresh buck of dirt.
We do that until chow, and meet back at 1300. Repeat until COB.
All said, all we did was walk up and down a hill maybe a dozen times. Sure, I wasted both of our days, but that Marine was never late for me again (without a phone call).
What we had was an extended counseling session. Was there exercise involved? Possibly.
As an example.
I had a young Marine who was constantly running late. A few minutes here, a few minutes there. Now, we all know "one offs" happen, but this was getting to be an issue.
So I scheduled a Saturday counseling session with him. His required equipment was a bucket and his E-tool. Appointed place of duty was base of the hill in Camp Horno at 0800.
We meet there, and I tell him the plan for the day. From where we are to the top is just under a mile. At 0830 he is to meet me with a full bucket of dirt. For me, it's a nice leisurely stroll. For him, with a full bucket, not so much.
He gets there at probably 0825~ and at 0830, I repeat the plan of the day. 0900 base of the hill with a fresh buck of dirt.
We do that until chow, and meet back at 1300. Repeat until COB.
All said, all we did was walk up and down a hill maybe a dozen times. Sure, I wasted both of our days, but that Marine was never late for me again (without a phone call).
What we had was an extended counseling session. Was there exercise involved? Possibly.
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