As we move forward with the trials of integrating women in combat arms Ranger has became a focal point of this. We all have opinions. How do you feel about this and what do you think the impact of such an integration will have on the military overall?
*This is an attempt to consolidate all the women in Ranger School discussion under one thread.
*This is an attempt to consolidate all the women in Ranger School discussion under one thread.
Posted 10 y ago
This is a duplicate discussion. Click below to see more on this topic.
Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Responses: 99
RLTW! I didn't hear anything about males or females in that slogan. Are you going first 1LT (Join to see) ?? I think you should!
1LT (Join to see)
No I don't think I'm going to go first lol. Maybe someday but for now I don't think I'm near ready for Ranger School
SFC Mark Merino
When can we see that Sapper tab?
1LT (Join to see)
Can't tell you right now SFC Mark Merino but if it happens you'll be the first to know.
SFC Mark Merino
1LT (Join to see) I would expect nothing less......lol
If they can pass at male standards, then let them have at it.
If the standard is not lowered or adjusted, then have at it! Same with Infantry Branch.
The real issue for me is: Will there be more male battle casualties trying to save females in battle due to our protective culture or will we be able to accept that a body is a body is a body? I have more problems with that then the gender issue. It's just the way I was raised. I still open doors for females and elders. Of course I am elder now. It's a joke OK?
The real issue for me is: Will there be more male battle casualties trying to save females in battle due to our protective culture or will we be able to accept that a body is a body is a body? I have more problems with that then the gender issue. It's just the way I was raised. I still open doors for females and elders. Of course I am elder now. It's a joke OK?
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
That was the same question raised in the movie "GI Jane" with Demi Moore, and never really answered. Same here I was raised to treat women as the "fairer sex". Though when in full combat gear on a mission, its hard to distinguish anyone by gender and the only thing that should count are their actions.
SSG V. Michelle Woods
SGT Rick Nyberg I completely understand where your SSG friend and you are coming from. We should all help each other equally and that's that.
I can't stand when a woman refuses to let a man help her because she believes she doesn't need a man's help. We're all suppose to be Soldiers and we're all suppose to lend a hand regardless of gender.
I can't stand when a woman refuses to let a man help her because she believes she doesn't need a man's help. We're all suppose to be Soldiers and we're all suppose to lend a hand regardless of gender.
SSgt (Join to see)
During the 70s women complained about men being too macho and during the late 80s through today, women want men to be manly (not cro-magnon) but men nonetheless.
Today we have militancy creeping in and it will be abandoned once another cause becomes more popular.
I do not care if they try but if they cannot hack it, it will give us ammo to shoot the idea down in the future. Who wants to die because someone can't hack it.
Today we have militancy creeping in and it will be abandoned once another cause becomes more popular.
I do not care if they try but if they cannot hack it, it will give us ammo to shoot the idea down in the future. Who wants to die because someone can't hack it.
You are correct as in anything departing from the "norm" it will take time to get accustomed to, my personal feelings are if she can do it and pass then the Army and DOD will be better off for it. Time to drop the 'shackles' and let this happen as I believe it is the best course of action....just my thoughts.
COL John Power
As long as they don't lower the standards, I guess it is acceptable. I don't really think it is necessary or a good idea, because it presents unnecessary logistical problems and leadership challenges that are best not addressed at the pointy end. I have absolutely no issue with female soldiers in the combat support roles and they should be permitted assignment to staff positions in combat units. But Infantry; Rangers; Tankers? I don't think that makes much sense except for those who pray at the altar of political correctness. And I've never met a female soldier or veteran who had any interest. Those that promote these initiatives don't either.
1SG (Join to see), I think we are ready for it. If "they" (not just women, but anyone who attends - in this case - Ranger school) can hang, then they should get the tab.
For me, the key portion of what you posted is this: "TO ENSURE THE BEST QUALIFIED SOLDIERS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE IN ANY POSITION WHERE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF PERFORMING TO STANDARD"
That's it exactly. The best qualified should should have the opportunity, and if they can meet the standard, then they should be allowed to serve in that role.
For me, the key portion of what you posted is this: "TO ENSURE THE BEST QUALIFIED SOLDIERS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE IN ANY POSITION WHERE THEY ARE CAPABLE OF PERFORMING TO STANDARD"
That's it exactly. The best qualified should should have the opportunity, and if they can meet the standard, then they should be allowed to serve in that role.
I'll put it like this. I know a lot of people who have not succeeded in Ranger School. I'd say there's been women in ranger school for years! ;-)
As a female I know I wouldn't not be able to handle it nor make it so myself would stay clear of it. I believe though if a women can pass on a male standard for Ranger School & have the mentally/physical fitness why not allow them? A few women that I have ran into over the years are more men then some of these men in the military right now.
Yes there will be issues as anytime the sexes are combined as one but eventually it dies down and it makes no difference. I am proud of any women in the military that can do this!
Yes there will be issues as anytime the sexes are combined as one but eventually it dies down and it makes no difference. I am proud of any women in the military that can do this!
As many others have said, so long as they achieve the same standard as every male alongside them then I have no issues with this. That said this is the school known for soldiers going into in the best shape of their life, and coming out of it in the worst. The fact that it's physically demanding is obvious and shouldn't be too surprising if females have issues graduating due to the physical strain on their bodies. What I think the real s***storm will derive from is the possibility of all, or even just a significant amount, of females getting peered out.
I just found out that this female soldier are going to the Ranger Training and Assessment Course (RTAC) at Fort Benning. This is the Pre-Ranger that is ran by the National Guard. It has the highest success yet in the Army. I went there right before Ranger. I am eager to see the result of this. I don't think it favors the females attempting this but I have been wrong before and will be wrong a few more times. I am curious how many women put in a bid to try out for Ranger.
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