Posted on Feb 19, 2014
Wisconsin National Guard suspends Honor Guard soldiers over casket incident
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What's next? Pestilence, flies and locusts? The fit has rightfully hit the shan. I would take all the people involved and dishonorably discharge every last one.
MILWAUKEE -- The Wisconsin National Guard said Tuesday that it had suspended a member from honor guard duties after she apparently posted to social media a photograph of soldiers mugging around an emp...
Army National Guard
Military bearing
Honor
Duty
Social Media
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 14
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No wonder Soldiers have little or no confidence in their senior leaders:
Pentagon promises accountability, but many generals still on duty months after discipline imposed.
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SGT (Join to see)
I remember an incident where several soldiers missed an alert muster, one being a second lieutenant. All were given Articles 15's except the lieutenant. He received a letter of reprimand. I never thought that was fair.
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LTC (Join to see)
It is a general officer letter of reprimand will be the end of his career because it is permanent like a field grade Article 15.
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1SG Michael Blount
SSG P (interesting play on words there) - which unit are you with in CT? I was with the CTARNG for a while (it's where I got my start), went over to 2/417th to become a Drill and never looked back. Lived in Danbury for about 20 years, so I know the area, and was just curious.
r,
1SG B
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SFC (Join to see)
Currently USAR 325th TC Det 1, but up till 2012 I was with 1-102 INF out of Branford CTARNG.
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1SG Michael Blount
SSG - I was with 2/192 FA out of Stratford until I went over to the Dark Side and became a Drill.
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I feel so sorry for today's soldiers.
As a 18 year old, stupid, "Private E Nothing", I participated in and quite possibly instigated many instances of awe inspiring stupidity.
Thankfully social media didn't exist at the time or I would have likely used it to embarrass myself on a national stage as well.
Where was the leadership that should have been taking them by the shoulder and impressing upon them the gravity of the responsibility, and leading them to constructive methods of relieving the tension of such awesome responsibility?
As a 18 year old, stupid, "Private E Nothing", I participated in and quite possibly instigated many instances of awe inspiring stupidity.
Thankfully social media didn't exist at the time or I would have likely used it to embarrass myself on a national stage as well.
Where was the leadership that should have been taking them by the shoulder and impressing upon them the gravity of the responsibility, and leading them to constructive methods of relieving the tension of such awesome responsibility?
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We have sunk this low 1SG. The discipline that existed even when I joined 8 years ago was much better than this. But the Army isn't what it used to be, unfortunately. I believe that there are several factors involved in that, and they don't start with the Soldiers joining today. To be quite honest, and I mean no disrespect, it starts at the top, with the senior leaders, and trickles downward. Fear is used as a mechanism to gain respect. Rank is seen as an entitlement rather than a privilege and responsibility. True respect comes from trust. And I know few leaders these days who earn true respect. When a person only shows respect to the rank in person, but disparages that rank as quickly as it takes for them to turn their back, then they aren't going carry discipline outside with them. They aren't going to care how they make that leader look. Because if that leader shows that they don't give a damn about their soldiers, their soldiers aren't going to give a damn about them.
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1SG Michael Blount
SPC - I agree a great deal of this situation has to do with senior leadership, both officers and enlisted. That said, however, lower enlisted personnel certainly know the difference between right and wrong - and these people were definately WRONG. There's no putting lipstick on this pig.
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Here we go again...Please tell me what's wrong with this picture. If I had any hair, I'd be pulling it out now.
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SFC (Join to see)
This is ridiculous and people actually like this stuff. When are our servicemen and women going to get it together? This is starting to become an ugly trend and we as leaders need to address this issue with our soldiers ASAP.
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SSG (Join to see)
well, sometimes it IS the leaders doing the dumb stuff (1SG hitting promotee with mallet on youtube) When we as leaders and our COC is doing what is right, then we can expect it from them. There are so many leaders doing illegal, immoral and unethical crap that its almost hypocritical to expect the jr enlisted to do whats right when we/ they aren't.
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1SG Michael Blount
My Soldiers know I don't live that way, nor will I tolerate it from them. SSG Broadbent is right - the example has to be set from the top, but NCOs have to enforce.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Soldiers with smart phones does not make a smart Soldier. I wonder how many of more of these we would have seen if technology was what it is today 10-15 years ago?
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....dumbasses. Boot them out. We don't need them. The military wants to reduce numbers. Start with those soldiers, NG or Regular army it does not matter.
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1SG Michael Blount
SFC - unfortunately, you're right, perception IS reality. Now, we ALL have to change the public's perception of what the Army's about. I would start by discharging all the people involved, change their REALITY and dare anybody to pull such a stunt again. Yah, I'm Old School.
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SFC (Join to see)
1SG,
I 100% agree but considering what was done, and I hate to say it, the UCMJ has no precedence for stupidity. Legally I believe the most that can be done is a GOMAR. They will undoubtedly be ostracized by their peers and will most likely remove themselves from the equation. They must also deal with the court of public opinion since they are all part time soldiers and the civilian workforce has seen this too.
I'm old school too and think a sand pit and some old FM 22-102 Wall to Wall Counseling is in order.
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1SG Michael Blount
I never liked wall to wall counseling. I prefer to leave them in the front leaning rest, then let gravity and lactic acid take over
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SSG William Patton
I'm with you 1st SGT. First they do not belong on honor guard duty, they have demostrated the ultimate dishonor to our fallen. I would make their lives miserable for about two years, or until their enlistment runs out and strip all of rank by at least two stripes. They would get every shit detail that comes along plus any I could think of.
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All I can do is shake my head and lower it in shame... They make us all look horrible.
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1SG Michael Blount
SSG - First - thank you for the selfless service you extend to the families of our fallen. In my younger days, I did quite a few funeral details and I know it made a lasting impression on the families. Second - I am just so floored that this story made the press, I can't decide whether to have a stroke, anyerism (sp?) or just blow a blood vessel. We'll be forever living this down and the black eye it gave will last a while. Third - I am reminded everytime my Drill Sergeants are about to interface with BCT Privates - it only takes one. Don't be "that guy" Looks like the WIARNG took care of that for us.
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SFC (Join to see)
1SG,
I think this all stems from the discussion of the Army is changing
in a rapid rate and it goes back to NCO's having their hands tied when it come
to corrective action. The NCO is supposed to be the backbone of the Army
but the Officers want to fry the NCO when he smokes a Soldier or has
creative corrective action. I had to go before my BN Commander because I
made a soldier wear a wall clock around his neck 24/7 for a week because
he was continuously late. If it wasn’t for my 1SG I would have
probably been demoted for hazing. They said it was demeaning to the Soldier. I
say it was disrespectful for him to be late to movement times. Plus
the corrective action worked he wasn’t late again. Bottom line we need to go back to a BDU style
uniform and instill discipline back in the ranks.
Plus I think we need to teach Soldier more history of what
past generations of soldiers have done.
This also opens a lot of Soldier’s eyes to WWII/ Vietnam/ Korea Vets and
what they went through. Pretty soon the
greatest generation in going to be gone and we have to keep their stories
alive. That is one thing I agree that
the Marine Corps does is teach the history during basic training.
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC Bourque, I never felt like my hands were tied except with respect to DA Civilians misbehaving. My 1SG and I installed several bars to reenlistment and discharges for poor performance and for cause. What I would point out is that not once did an NCO other than the 1SG come to me with a recommendation to administratively discipline a Soldier for poor performance. Bear in mind that my comments are limited to company command in the Army Reserve, but we are all the same team under the same basic rules.
I would have loved to follow through on the recommendation from a team- or squad-leader to file an Art. 15 or bar to reenlistment. The only recommendations I received, however, were to take it easy on the Soldier.
The Army, indeed the entire DOD, has taken the position that hazing is not the way we, as professionals, handle business. The Soldier you mentioned disrespected you by disregarding your timeline. A punishment befitting the responsible adult he should be held to be would have been administrative sanctions, i.e. counseling, bar to reenlistment, administrative reduction, extra duty, or Art. 15.
I welcome comments on this point, but this formula seems solid to me: lawful order + disobedience = Art. 15. Obviously, jumping straight to Art. 15 (summary or field grade) could be replaced by a lesser punishment at the chain of command's discretion, but the point is that this obviates the need to demean the Soldier by making him/her wear a wall clock around their neck, which is also a violation of uniform policy.
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SGT (Join to see)
I understand what you are saying, sir, and I totally agree. However, I would never have gone to my CO with problems in my combat team. I would have strictly used the chain of command. I reported to my squad leader, he reported to the platoon sergeant who reported to our lieutenant. In all of the infantry units I was in, I would never have broken the chain of command and gone to my CO. He had more important work to worry about. Perhaps that is why other NCOs did not come to you.
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I saw this when it first hit the site. I agree, I may not have been the greatest soldier ever to serve my country, but what these "soldiers" did was an absolute disgrace to the uniform they wear. Not to mention the Nation they defend, and represent to the people of this country. It is one thing to disrespect the living and still serving service members is one thing, but to behave this way in front of the family of a fallen comrade is just beyond my comprehension. Court Martial is too good, but is the best thing we have to defend against this type of atrocious behavior. So much for my .02.
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Every time I turn around, it seems like somebody else is busy acting like an idiot. NOW it's an Army BG. Way to set the example - if anyone needs to be thrown out of the Army, I nominate ex-BG Sinclair first in the door.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/justice/army-general-charges/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Lawyer: Ex-Brig. Gen. Jeffery Sinclair, accused of "sodomy ... by force" and other military crimes, will plead guilty on some charges but not the most serious.
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