Posted on Oct 31, 2014
Why is it that officers are considered unprofessional who wear mustaches?
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Why is it that officers are considered unprofessional who wear mustaches? I have come from an NCO background of 10 years before becoming an officer and one of the first things I was told was lose the mustache. what is so different from having a mustache as an NCO to an officer
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Officers
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Posted 10 y ago
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Could I not have made O-6 because I have a 'stache? The world may never know, although I did shave it off...for the first time in 30 years...for my DA photo as an LTC, because I was 'advised' that the O-6 boards didn't like facial hair of any kind. (See above for the only known photo of me without lip hair, since 1981!). In the end it didn't matter, since I never went to the board, for several good reasons. And if I hadn't been in the MEB/PEB pipeline after my last deployment, my new DA/board photo would have had the 'stache.
Other than that, I've never had a problem with my 'stache. If anyone looked down on my for it, they never said anything where I could hear. And it obviously didn't keep me from getting promoted to O-5. Perhaps it's just a sign of the "lower standards" for Reserve soldiers, but I never considered it a big deal at all and none of my bosses did either. Keeping it within regs was never a problem because I kept it right. Having a mustache never seemed to affect my competence or mission performance, so I find any prejudice against them to be kind of ridiculous.
My wife's first response to my bare lip, when I shaved it off, was "grow it back"! And I did.
Other than that, I've never had a problem with my 'stache. If anyone looked down on my for it, they never said anything where I could hear. And it obviously didn't keep me from getting promoted to O-5. Perhaps it's just a sign of the "lower standards" for Reserve soldiers, but I never considered it a big deal at all and none of my bosses did either. Keeping it within regs was never a problem because I kept it right. Having a mustache never seemed to affect my competence or mission performance, so I find any prejudice against them to be kind of ridiculous.
My wife's first response to my bare lip, when I shaved it off, was "grow it back"! And I did.
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I don't see the problem.. Regulations states how it is to be worn... There is no way it is considered unprofessional. It actually shows more maturity
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
Thing is, usually if worn IAW regulations, it looks almost HITLER in nature. The taper, not to exceed the corners of the mouth and over the lip, well leaves less than many desire on the lip. :-/
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SPC Judy P.
I have had a few of my guys have the "Hitler" look and I have had them soften it up a little..Both my husbands (RIP both of you) 1st husband was in for 10 yrs and the second 20yrs.. they always had the mustache and I trimmed it up for each of them ... I kept with in Reg and never had a problem .. I believe if you keep it right.. it will always look great and professional
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I have worn a mustache several times while an officer (and wear it pretty well if I do say so!), but with the headache of maintaining it within AR 670-1, I would rather have the ease of being cleanshaven.
Regarding professionalism, it seems to me that much of this comes from the 'unkempt' appearance any kind of hair that is not maintained well would present. My father grew a mustache as a young LT in Vietnam and kept it through the 1980s when he finally shaved it off for good (he retired from the Army in 1993). Looking back on old pictures, there are some where he looks unkempt, but I have no reason to doubt his professionalism with or without the mustache! In my own experience, those that met me cleanshaven made their opinion of me and my abilities as such. After I would grow a 'stache, did that mean I was no longer as 'good' as I was before? Of course not!
I understand the reasons for short hair on our heads and our faces, but as long as it is kept well groomed, why not allow mustaches?
Regarding professionalism, it seems to me that much of this comes from the 'unkempt' appearance any kind of hair that is not maintained well would present. My father grew a mustache as a young LT in Vietnam and kept it through the 1980s when he finally shaved it off for good (he retired from the Army in 1993). Looking back on old pictures, there are some where he looks unkempt, but I have no reason to doubt his professionalism with or without the mustache! In my own experience, those that met me cleanshaven made their opinion of me and my abilities as such. After I would grow a 'stache, did that mean I was no longer as 'good' as I was before? Of course not!
I understand the reasons for short hair on our heads and our faces, but as long as it is kept well groomed, why not allow mustaches?
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SPC Judy P.
I agree with you.. I am old school military..my father, ex-step-father and most of the Military and civilian men related to me do "the stache" ( I am the only female in my family that went in) I feel with each generation and each era that the determination of facial hair has adapted and depending on what MOS you are really depends on what type you have..
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In the infantry it is a mark of disdain. I recall a guy that just got back from SFAS with a mustache. In the first PT formation he was at the 1SG called him out and told him to go inside and shave it off asap then come back to formation. He was a SSG. It was funny but it is pretty rare to see a SSG get called out like that.
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CPT (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see) To be honest there is no way the Navy is flawless. I know for a fact that they suffer from this just as the Marines. In the Marines you have the Air and the Ground guys. Even I know that.
In the Army we have the Combat Arms and the Support. Even in the Combat Arms the Infantry stands out amount the other branches. Even inside the infantry you have the Ranger, Airborne, and Mech communities.
I am not sure how much you have been exposed to overall Navy but if you are telling me that everyone in the Navy is viewed the same and are treated the same I find it hard to believe. I question how are Seals, Seabees, and Naval Aviators are treated? You make it sound like they are all treated the same as some boatswain's mate.
In the Army we have the Combat Arms and the Support. Even in the Combat Arms the Infantry stands out amount the other branches. Even inside the infantry you have the Ranger, Airborne, and Mech communities.
I am not sure how much you have been exposed to overall Navy but if you are telling me that everyone in the Navy is viewed the same and are treated the same I find it hard to believe. I question how are Seals, Seabees, and Naval Aviators are treated? You make it sound like they are all treated the same as some boatswain's mate.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Cool down, hot sauce. Nobody said the Navy is perfect. No need to lash out because your argument was undermined.
You defended the unwritten rule based on an appeal to uniformity. I pointed out that such a beast doesn't exist (unless one is trying to use it to justify their own view of how things ought to be). The Navy never entered into this conversation.
And, yes, in sixteen years, I've been around the fleet a little, so shit-can the snide comment. I never tried to justify a navy rule, policy, tradition, or wild hair based on uniformity. You tried to justify an Army thing based on that. I'm well aware of the different communities in the Navy - hell, I even jumped ship from nuclear to air. Never tried to pretend they're treated the same.
In other words, argue based on what I say, no on your own frustration of having an invalid perspective.
You defended the unwritten rule based on an appeal to uniformity. I pointed out that such a beast doesn't exist (unless one is trying to use it to justify their own view of how things ought to be). The Navy never entered into this conversation.
And, yes, in sixteen years, I've been around the fleet a little, so shit-can the snide comment. I never tried to justify a navy rule, policy, tradition, or wild hair based on uniformity. You tried to justify an Army thing based on that. I'm well aware of the different communities in the Navy - hell, I even jumped ship from nuclear to air. Never tried to pretend they're treated the same.
In other words, argue based on what I say, no on your own frustration of having an invalid perspective.
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CPT (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see) First I apologize that if I came off wrong. But I didn't think I was lashing out. As I stated before that I am just reaffirming the rule and how it is applied in the Army. I have never made a soldier shave a mustache, nor will I ever.
Now let me be more clear about what I am trying to say. You are in the Navy. That's cute. (This actually is a snide remark) But you are tearing away at a belief that you have no understanding of. It is something that held fast in the Army Infantry and only the Infantry. Most people in Army don't even agree with it and it is not adhered to in just about everywhere else in the Army. The reason I brought up the Navy was to put perspective into it. Apparently you are beyond all of this. When I look at a sister service I don't only gauge them by the Army standards and customs. It shouldn't make sense to you because you are not Army Infantry. You are Navy.
You can reply but there really is no need. I really don't care and really don't want any your intellectual superior observations. Anchors Away.
Now let me be more clear about what I am trying to say. You are in the Navy. That's cute. (This actually is a snide remark) But you are tearing away at a belief that you have no understanding of. It is something that held fast in the Army Infantry and only the Infantry. Most people in Army don't even agree with it and it is not adhered to in just about everywhere else in the Army. The reason I brought up the Navy was to put perspective into it. Apparently you are beyond all of this. When I look at a sister service I don't only gauge them by the Army standards and customs. It shouldn't make sense to you because you are not Army Infantry. You are Navy.
You can reply but there really is no need. I really don't care and really don't want any your intellectual superior observations. Anchors Away.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Wow. CPT (Join to see), that was something else. Granted, not something good, but still...
Since you've been kind enough to try to clarify what you were trying to say, you won't mind if I run with that.
First of all, don't hide behind the "you can't talk about the Army since you're not Army" crap. I am an outsider, looking in as an outsider, and reporting what I see. You see, 1LT Rosa, this happens in a lot of organizations. People and programs get looked at from within and from without. And often, it turns out, the people from outside the organizations are the ones who actually can see things for what they are.
On top of that, in an era of joint ops, we all have a duty to learn from other branches. That means my Navy might get something from the Air Force, and yes... even your Army might find something valuable in what even a "cute" Naval Officer has to say. I know. Shocking.
The amusing thing about it is that you still don't seem to understand that I didn't judge the Army's views on this by Navy standards - I used the very standards and reasons YOU set out and pointed out that the justification doesn't hold water. That's when you threw a fit.
You can reply if you wish. Unlike you, I'll consider and respond. I'm more interested in dialogue than parting shots. Plus, it seems like you could benefit from my "intellectual superior observations."
CPT Michael Barden, I can understand that it may be a cultural norm - but if it actually has an impact on those who have 'staches, then I think it's fair to weigh in and ask if it makes sense.
We've got our own stupidities - for instance, the whole brown shoe BS.
Since you've been kind enough to try to clarify what you were trying to say, you won't mind if I run with that.
First of all, don't hide behind the "you can't talk about the Army since you're not Army" crap. I am an outsider, looking in as an outsider, and reporting what I see. You see, 1LT Rosa, this happens in a lot of organizations. People and programs get looked at from within and from without. And often, it turns out, the people from outside the organizations are the ones who actually can see things for what they are.
On top of that, in an era of joint ops, we all have a duty to learn from other branches. That means my Navy might get something from the Air Force, and yes... even your Army might find something valuable in what even a "cute" Naval Officer has to say. I know. Shocking.
The amusing thing about it is that you still don't seem to understand that I didn't judge the Army's views on this by Navy standards - I used the very standards and reasons YOU set out and pointed out that the justification doesn't hold water. That's when you threw a fit.
You can reply if you wish. Unlike you, I'll consider and respond. I'm more interested in dialogue than parting shots. Plus, it seems like you could benefit from my "intellectual superior observations."
CPT Michael Barden, I can understand that it may be a cultural norm - but if it actually has an impact on those who have 'staches, then I think it's fair to weigh in and ask if it makes sense.
We've got our own stupidities - for instance, the whole brown shoe BS.
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1LT(P) (Join to see) As I see it the military wants to maintain as much separation as they can between officer and enlisted. So these little clean-cut images.
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I say neutral because, historically speaking, it gave him character, as long as it was neat. On female officers, however, no. I do not know when mustaches and beards became taboo in the military, but again, it makes more sense in combat to wear them (unless it interferes with equipment) than in garrison where appearance is more important.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Must be a different service thing.
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/flightlines/2014/02/21/welsh-throws-down-gauntlet-air-force-wide-mustache-march/
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/flightlines/2014/02/21/welsh-throws-down-gauntlet-air-force-wide-mustache-march/
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Lt Col (Join to see)
No one would dare fck with that guy, when you are top air force jet ace, you pretty much walk the walk. He was one of the last air cowboys.
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MSgt (Join to see)
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id= [login to see] 71
The ultimate list of all badasses past and present.
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As COL Jean (John) F. B. said, I think it's just about an unwritten rule that mustaches don't "go" on officers. They might get by with it, but I wouldn't want to have my official photo with a mustache. I think it could be a discriminator, and not in a good way.
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
CW5 (Join to see)
Good point about the photo. Having been on several promotion boards and talking to others who have, as well, the consensus was that it was an immediate "turn off" that, despite if it was right or wrong, probably impacted their opinion of the officer in their evaluation.
I have seen several officers, who normally had moustaches, shave them off before getting an official photo. Smart move...
Good point about the photo. Having been on several promotion boards and talking to others who have, as well, the consensus was that it was an immediate "turn off" that, despite if it was right or wrong, probably impacted their opinion of the officer in their evaluation.
I have seen several officers, who normally had moustaches, shave them off before getting an official photo. Smart move...
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LTC (Join to see)
Sir, Thanks for bringing this up. I mentioned earlier that I shaved my mustache for the DA board because I suspected this type of bias. It worked. I ask though, that we all instill in our officers a balanced approach to leadership and assessment of each other. If you are going to put someone in the non-photogenic pile on a board, show the due diligence to breeze through their ORB. If they held hard jobs, had good OERs and otherwise showed excellence in their performance, overlook the ugly mug...and facial hair. The measure of an officer should not only be in their own achievements, but even more so, that of the unit they lead. A DA photo won't tell that story. Their OERs should... and that's a whole other topic!
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SFC Clark Adams
Another reason to do away with the DA photo in the files..........if you don't know how to properly wear your uniform, you shouldn't be up for promotion consideration to any rank.......
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SSG Warren Swan
CPT even though this is an officer speaking on this, it's still NCO business. Officers make the rules and NCO's enforce them. Now they also "guide" officers in their careers so something like this would be useful knowledge to that PSG working with that LT and so on. Whenever it comes to the enforcement of a standard, it is NCO buisness. BTW you don't see many SGM's or CSM's with staches either. So maybe the unwritten rule goes both ways.
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SSG (Join to see)
Everyone has their opinions on 'staches but at the end of the day there shouldn't be an adverse result on your career because one chooses to wear one. Just my 2 cents.
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