Posted on Sep 4, 2014
Who else thinks the AF is going to get burned on this one? - Airman denied reenlistment for refusing to say "so help me God"
96.7K
1.36K
750
30
30
0
I think the AF is going to get burned bad by this. While 10 USC 502 may include the four words "so help me god" and the AFI no longer states that it is optional; Article VI, paragraph 3 of the US Constitution trumps US Code:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
I have never forced anyone to say those words when administering the oath nor have I had anyone require me to say them when I was reciting the officer's oath of office at my commissioning ceremony and subsequent promotions.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS05/309040066/Group-Airman-denied-reenlistment-refusing-say-help-me-God-
EDIT:
The AF ended up changing course (rightly so according to the DoD legal review).
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140917/NEWS/309170066/Air-Force-nixes-help-me-God-requirement-oaths
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
I have never forced anyone to say those words when administering the oath nor have I had anyone require me to say them when I was reciting the officer's oath of office at my commissioning ceremony and subsequent promotions.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS05/309040066/Group-Airman-denied-reenlistment-refusing-say-help-me-God-
EDIT:
The AF ended up changing course (rightly so according to the DoD legal review).
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140917/NEWS/309170066/Air-Force-nixes-help-me-God-requirement-oaths
Posted in these groups: 
Oath
Re-enlistment
Oath Re-enlistment
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 96
0
0
0
If he's denied reenlistment so shall be it, it's a couple of words, why should it be a big deal to say them ?? This guy is a character, just looking for publicity.. And not to mention now you gonna have a whole bunch of sympathy people coming in here talking this or that about the Airforce and blah blah , the Airforce is not the problem, the problem is that guy with his dumb ass publicity stunt. So to hell with him and who ever supports him, the AIRFORCE will be better off without him !!!
(0)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
The problem is, if it's just a "couple of words", then why not omit them?
DODI and USMEPCOM specify that "So help me God" is optional at the discretion of the individual.
This is a case of the AFI being updated to omit the verbiage that it was optional; the story (if you read it through) is also misleading. The problem was that the individual actually lined out "so help me God" on the Re-enlistment contract, which is why the personnel office wouldn't accept it.
That said, To say that it was a "publicity stunt" really just assumes that anyone who objects to swearing an oath "under God" is just doing so for publicity... which I think is a very one-dimensional viewpoint.
DODI and USMEPCOM specify that "So help me God" is optional at the discretion of the individual.
This is a case of the AFI being updated to omit the verbiage that it was optional; the story (if you read it through) is also misleading. The problem was that the individual actually lined out "so help me God" on the Re-enlistment contract, which is why the personnel office wouldn't accept it.
That said, To say that it was a "publicity stunt" really just assumes that anyone who objects to swearing an oath "under God" is just doing so for publicity... which I think is a very one-dimensional viewpoint.
(2)
(0)
0
0
0
What wrong with a person if he/she doesn't say " so help me God. That the American Oath we are under. Money legal tender in which we may carry in our pocket, every bill and change states " In God We Trust." Do we now throw it away because it is useless. Are who has a higher calling then the Almighty God. We I went into the Military in 1972, in Boot Camp, there were only two denominations Protestant and Catholic, anything else were considered servants of the devil, and you were Physical Trained until, Church Services were over on Sunday. At Parris Island, back then we had no rights that anyone enforced the UCMJ were a joke, If you ever tried to report what were good on you would be physically beaten, carried away by the Military Police place in a hole with bars over the top and feed skim milk and lettuce for days.
(0)
(0)
MSgt Lowell Skelton
Yeah, let's long for the days of rampant abuses while others try to bring them back.
(1)
(0)
LCpl James Robertson
Are you really making fun of me what really happen in 1972, you have no ideal what Motivational Platoon were about, Its when you were randomly selected, to be removed from your regularly platoon, at 0300 hours. You today as military personnel is a option for you today, gladly you can laugh at me, but in 1972 this were not a joke, motivational platoon were real. All that I have said are true, laugh as you wish but this were the real USMC. You who served in other branches of the military is lucky, but I were not lucky and is currently suffering PTSD, for being brain washed in a sewage drain that you had to graduate from, and spend hours, in quicksand sewage of feces, until they graduate you into the Bataan dead march, where the D.I.'s, they caught up with you, you would be beaten until you were unconscious and the Corpsman would have to take you to sick bay. And remember a Congress had to investigate this form of training at this time, and to ban it on Parris Island, while we were force to write Congress, to tell them I have not been tortured, while station at Parris Island, SC., go ahead and laugh and make fun of situations I don't think as funny. You life in the Military does not co-exist with Marines of the past, you were lucky and count your blessings, that you came out OK.
(0)
(0)
MSgt Lowell Skelton
Whether illegal compulsory god-oaths, or physical abuse, there is no place for any of that in our military. Those abuses should never have happened to you, nor should this First Amendment violation which you dismissed so readily.
(1)
(0)
0
0
0
I am going to refer to another discussion post by an Army staff sergeant on this. In his post, SSG Matthew Adkins asked a question pertaining to prayer for uniformity purposes. He stated "An invocation and benediction at official military functions are traditional and have been upheld as constitutional by the Supreme Court." And then brought into question Soldiers being FORCED to bow their heads in prayer, which is wrong.
Now, using that example to formulate my answer. Will the Air Force get burned - who knows. They removed something that was tradition to appease one group, but what about the group that likes tradition? What about the Christians who have no objection to 'so help me God'?
Everyone cannot be happy all the time, its a fact. When one thing gets taken, there will always be a group that feels robbed of something.
Now, using that example to formulate my answer. Will the Air Force get burned - who knows. They removed something that was tradition to appease one group, but what about the group that likes tradition? What about the Christians who have no objection to 'so help me God'?
Everyone cannot be happy all the time, its a fact. When one thing gets taken, there will always be a group that feels robbed of something.
(0)
(0)
MSgt Lowell Skelton
Christians can still say it. The language making it compulsory was removed. That should satisfy everyone except hard core god-pushers.
(2)
(0)
0
0
0
0
0
0
I should start out with, yes this is wrong, and should be changed.
However, I concur with the Air force stance. The Air Force does not make law. The Air Force does not interpret the constitution. That is what Congress and the Supreme Courts are for. This needs to be changed at that level, and the Air Force will follow suit. You should not expect the Air Force to do this on their own, in fact we should all be highly upset should the Air Force decide to take it upon themselves to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and change law. (Even if, such as in this case, changing it is the right thing to do)
However, I concur with the Air force stance. The Air Force does not make law. The Air Force does not interpret the constitution. That is what Congress and the Supreme Courts are for. This needs to be changed at that level, and the Air Force will follow suit. You should not expect the Air Force to do this on their own, in fact we should all be highly upset should the Air Force decide to take it upon themselves to unilaterally interpret the Constitution and change law. (Even if, such as in this case, changing it is the right thing to do)
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
I understand soldiers/airmen/marines/sailors adapt to their service regardless of what they think is right or wrong.
There's no reason to take away someones religious freedom. I believe the line "so help me god" should be able to be modified to whatever religion the new recruit is, or prefer not to say it at all.
I had no issue saying it but some people do, we have to respect others and their religion practices.
There's no reason to take away someones religious freedom. I believe the line "so help me god" should be able to be modified to whatever religion the new recruit is, or prefer not to say it at all.
I had no issue saying it but some people do, we have to respect others and their religion practices.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Eeo complaint because you can't be denied stuff based on age sex color or religion that is what it is forcing someone to go against their religion or be punished for it
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Our United States military is an all voluntary force. The contract which is entered to serve require conformity to regulation to DOD and the specific branch of service. Volunteer agree to conform to, abide by and follow all rugulation and instructions. The USAF will NOT ber burned and the Airman may exercise his option to seperate from service.
(0)
(0)
MSgt Lowell Skelton
Air Force HAS been burned. Airman may re-enlist with HIS choice of oath. You may now eat your words.
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/497535/af-to-change-instructions-for-oaths.aspx
http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/497535/af-to-change-instructions-for-oaths.aspx
(1)
(0)
MSgt Lowell Skelton
If his future is limited, and he is marked, it is only because there are individuals in positions of authority who have no business being in those positions because of their petty and vindictive prejudices. There should be no reprisals whatsoever for demanding the Air Force comply with the explicit prohibition of religious tests in Article VI, Paragraph 3. Upholding Constitutional principles is never a waste of time, and is not just an obligation, but a duty of all those serving. "Just following orders" is never a legitimate excuse to violate the law.
(2)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
I applaud the airman's courage and whether there are reprisals or not, he can be proud that he has made the Air Force a more inclusive service that no longer discriminates against atheists quite to the level it had previously.
(2)
(0)
0
0
0
As I recall, and I realize I am somewhat late to this discussion, "under God" was optional, in the Army, anyway. Usually the Air Force is ahead of the Army on this one. I recaall offering individuals the choice of "swear or affirm" while adminstering the oath accompanying a sworn statement.
(0)
(0)
TSgt Joshua Copeland
SSG Bill Sier It stopped being optional in the AF last October where the language in the AFI changed saying the whole oath is mandatory.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
LTC (Join to see)
Your joking right? So lets see, on one side we have natural selection, verified, documented, observed and proven. On the other side we have god turning a pile of dust into a fully developed modern man, then plucking his rib to create a woman. Then we all descended from them and their incestuous, inbred offspring.
You tell me which one is true.
You tell me which one is true.
(1)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
I will waste no further time with you. It is quite clear that your worldview is based on the writings of bronze and iron age Judean shepherds and that you are not open to any anything that goes against your ancient fantasy.
(1)
(0)
Capt Jeff S.
Spoken like a true lawyer.
"A lie that everyone believes is still a lie." << This much we agree on!
A lie, such as when the courts rule that abortion is not murder, is still a lie. Just because some judge rules that abortion is legal (despite the fact that scientists will tell you that life begins at conception), that doesn't make it ethical or right. We can all salve our guilty consciences though - because a man said it's legal. It is a compromise or half-measure that fails to address the root of the problem -- individual irresponsibility and recklessness, for which an innocent is made to pay the price of others' indiscressions. So instead of breaking man's laws, we go against the law of nature. What animal species kills its own young as a matter of convenience?
Why is it that abortion is legal, yet in a homocide when a pregnant woman is killed, the killer can be charged with 2 murders: the murder of the woman AND her unborn child? Even the ancients would tell you that killing the unborn is wrong. In nearly every culture on Earth it is wrong to murder. And nearly every culture on Earth recognizes some kind of higher power/higher intelligence responsible for the creation that we see all around us... the creation of life itself!
You can't explain to any of us how the universe came to be, yet you criticize those for what they believe. Frankly I think it takes more faith to believe something came from nothing than it does to believe that some thing or some one (God?) created the universe. I don't profess to have all the answers, but I am pretty quick to pick up on what isn't an answer. Don't criticize, if you have no better solution.
"A lie that everyone believes is still a lie." << This much we agree on!
A lie, such as when the courts rule that abortion is not murder, is still a lie. Just because some judge rules that abortion is legal (despite the fact that scientists will tell you that life begins at conception), that doesn't make it ethical or right. We can all salve our guilty consciences though - because a man said it's legal. It is a compromise or half-measure that fails to address the root of the problem -- individual irresponsibility and recklessness, for which an innocent is made to pay the price of others' indiscressions. So instead of breaking man's laws, we go against the law of nature. What animal species kills its own young as a matter of convenience?
Why is it that abortion is legal, yet in a homocide when a pregnant woman is killed, the killer can be charged with 2 murders: the murder of the woman AND her unborn child? Even the ancients would tell you that killing the unborn is wrong. In nearly every culture on Earth it is wrong to murder. And nearly every culture on Earth recognizes some kind of higher power/higher intelligence responsible for the creation that we see all around us... the creation of life itself!
You can't explain to any of us how the universe came to be, yet you criticize those for what they believe. Frankly I think it takes more faith to believe something came from nothing than it does to believe that some thing or some one (God?) created the universe. I don't profess to have all the answers, but I am pretty quick to pick up on what isn't an answer. Don't criticize, if you have no better solution.
(0)
(0)
Capt Jeff S.
It wasn't just General George Washington that recognized the importance of morality and religion in the proper functioning of governments [and their militaries].
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=63
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=63
WallBuilders - Historical Writings - Importance of Morality and Religion in Government
Historical Writings - Importance of Morality and Religion in Government ,A collection of quotes from the Founding Fathers.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google