Posted on Feb 12, 2021
What should local leadership (division officers through the commanding officer) be doing to fight active duty suicide and depression?
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When the Navy cancelled NKO requirements for training (i.e., made it so local commands could write, deliver, and track training as they see fit), the purpose was to remove administrative distractions and improve leader engagement.
A couple of weeks later, I was standing at quarters in front of my division when one of my leading chief petty officers began passing around clipboards. Each was filled with a stack of PowerPoint printouts and an attached muster sheet. He told the Sailors to look through the printed slides during quarters and check next to their name on the muster that they had received training. It suddenly occurred to me that his intention was to collect the muster sheets and add them to our binder in the office as record of training conducted. Among these presentations was a set of slides on suicide prevention and awareness.
I was beside myself. There was even a spot for me to check that I had received the training, too. Instead of seeing the naval message as a chance to IMPROVE our training — to develop our engagement with the division on these issues — he saw it as a chance to throw it away. To him, this stuff had just been a big waste of time anyway, and he literally turned it into a check in the box.
Every time a Sailor commits suicide or updated military suicide data is released, I see online forums like "Shit My LPO Says" and "Decelerate My Life" immediately talk about how it's a failure from leadership at all levels. Many also immediately claim that the suicide was due, at least in part, to toxic leadership present at the local levels. Yet I've also seen these same Sailors gossip about people who self-report depression as "sadding out" just to get out of work, training, or contracts. So I take some umbrage at laying the blame on leadership, and yet I've clearly seen shipboard leadership drop the ball HARD.
Assuming these online Sailors are right, what should leaders be doing to improve the situation? Or is it crazy to tell shipboard leadership to stop a person from killing themselves? Is it even more crazy to immediately assume that the REASON they committed suicide was the military's "toxic workplace environment"?
A couple of weeks later, I was standing at quarters in front of my division when one of my leading chief petty officers began passing around clipboards. Each was filled with a stack of PowerPoint printouts and an attached muster sheet. He told the Sailors to look through the printed slides during quarters and check next to their name on the muster that they had received training. It suddenly occurred to me that his intention was to collect the muster sheets and add them to our binder in the office as record of training conducted. Among these presentations was a set of slides on suicide prevention and awareness.
I was beside myself. There was even a spot for me to check that I had received the training, too. Instead of seeing the naval message as a chance to IMPROVE our training — to develop our engagement with the division on these issues — he saw it as a chance to throw it away. To him, this stuff had just been a big waste of time anyway, and he literally turned it into a check in the box.
Every time a Sailor commits suicide or updated military suicide data is released, I see online forums like "Shit My LPO Says" and "Decelerate My Life" immediately talk about how it's a failure from leadership at all levels. Many also immediately claim that the suicide was due, at least in part, to toxic leadership present at the local levels. Yet I've also seen these same Sailors gossip about people who self-report depression as "sadding out" just to get out of work, training, or contracts. So I take some umbrage at laying the blame on leadership, and yet I've clearly seen shipboard leadership drop the ball HARD.
Assuming these online Sailors are right, what should leaders be doing to improve the situation? Or is it crazy to tell shipboard leadership to stop a person from killing themselves? Is it even more crazy to immediately assume that the REASON they committed suicide was the military's "toxic workplace environment"?
Suicide
Senior Leaders
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Training
Edited 4 y ago
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 15
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I will tell you exactly what leaders should do.
- Ensure appropriate medical care is given.
- Create a treatment plan.
- Let the SMs focus on their treatment and healing as priority #1.
- Practice some fvcking empathy and sympathy.
- Conduct good training on PTSD/Suicides.
- Treat SMs with PTSD with dignity and respect.
- Find out what the home life is like.
- Ensure appropriate medical care is given.
- Create a treatment plan.
- Let the SMs focus on their treatment and healing as priority #1.
- Practice some fvcking empathy and sympathy.
- Conduct good training on PTSD/Suicides.
- Treat SMs with PTSD with dignity and respect.
- Find out what the home life is like.
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Honest answer? Giving half a damn. The bar really is that low. Servicemen can tell when their leadership cares more about their career progression or looking good than actually caring for those they lead.
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LT Brad McInnis
SSgt Addison R. SGT (Join to see) I almost lost a sailor to suicide when I was a young officer. I wish a couple of smart folks like yourselves had told me how much more I needed to pay attention to sailors life outside the ship. Luckily, my mistake wasn't fatal, and I paid much more attention afterwords.
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Contact your local Red Cross and let us set up Free Resiliency Training for your personnel on your schedule
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SGT (Join to see)
You know what we would joke about when we were hurrying up to wait for resiliency training? We would joke that the training was so terrible, so out of touch, that it made us want to kill ourselves. It's ridiculous that someone would read what LT Walker wrote and think to themselves, "I think those servicemen need more half assed check the box training. That will fix things right up."
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SGT (Join to see) - The problem, then, was that the training was being half-assed.
Resiliency training, properly done, properly resourced, properly invested, and properly modeled by senior leaders (to include showing up AND PARTICIPATING) pays immense dividends.
Just like calling two iterations of dime-washer drills "weapons training" instead of going to the GD range and shooting at GD targets with GD bullets sets you up for failure, calling a hurried-through slide deck of terminology "resiliency training" instead of actually discussing the skills, how to employ them, and having senior leaders get up and admit their faults and how they overcame them with these skills sets you up for failure.
Every single time I stood up in one of the sessions and discussed my own suicide attempts, people quit bull-shitting and listened. But it takes leaders who are willing to make this shit REAL, and to talk REAL and to LISTEN - and facilitators who give a f*ck - to make it work.
Resiliency training, properly done, properly resourced, properly invested, and properly modeled by senior leaders (to include showing up AND PARTICIPATING) pays immense dividends.
Just like calling two iterations of dime-washer drills "weapons training" instead of going to the GD range and shooting at GD targets with GD bullets sets you up for failure, calling a hurried-through slide deck of terminology "resiliency training" instead of actually discussing the skills, how to employ them, and having senior leaders get up and admit their faults and how they overcame them with these skills sets you up for failure.
Every single time I stood up in one of the sessions and discussed my own suicide attempts, people quit bull-shitting and listened. But it takes leaders who are willing to make this shit REAL, and to talk REAL and to LISTEN - and facilitators who give a f*ck - to make it work.
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SGT (Join to see)
SFC Casey O'Mally - By what I've just read I've never been to a resiliency training that wasn't half assed, because when I was active duty I went to plenty of them and none of them were anything like what you described. Death by powerpoint was the standard that was never deviated from. I never once had anyone stand up and tell their experience, leadership or otherwise.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SGT (Join to see) I don't doubt it. No one cares about resiliency training until AFTER something happens.
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Take policy and training seriously. Ensure that coaches, mentors and leaders do not blow off signs relating to the issue. When symptoms are identified leaders must take action, get involved and solicit any and all resources. There are many tag line associated with, and a stigma that goes along with it as well. Any person under the right (wrong) circumstances could be subject to these feelings and be a candidate for suicide. Everyone needs to take it seriously.
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All shipboard training that has concerns "admin" type stuff, rather than watch standing/combat drills has always been treated with a check in the box mentality. If you are upset about it (and you should be) then do something about it. You are the DH/LT. You make the time and make the people pay attention. Unfortunately, a lot of it is dry. I would tell you to tell your LCPO they are lucky they haven't had a sailor under them die by suicide. I came very, very close (I walked in on the attempt and stopped them) to losing a sailor. It is not something I would wish on anyone one.
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Sir,
I have never been a fan of the "you are at fault because your Soldier (Sailor) did a completely unexpected messed up thing" like holding 1SGs accountable when PVT Snuffy goes out and robs a bank. Well 1SG did you tell PVT Snuffy to rob a bank in your weekly safety brief? NO? Well that is obviously the reason he did it, then.
There are times when your Sailors will do things that you never would have expected or thought about. Sometimes suicide is one of those things. But.....
But not often, if you are paying attention. Not everyone who attempts suicide exhibits warning signs, but most do. One of the most important parts of suicide awareness training (or whatever they are calling it these days) is knowing what those warning signs look like IN REALITY. Not just listing them on a slide, but discussing how that would look IN YOUR UNIT. Script out a skit / roleplay. Make it real - use current gripes, problems, or stressors (upcoming sea tour / upcoming shore leave, recent below standard collective ratings, COVID quarantines, etc.). The other of the most important parts of suicide awareness training is resources. Everyone needs to know what resources are available - not for themselves, but for a battle buddy. Make sure they know who to talk to / who to call, and how to get a hold of them. I have never been on a ship at sea, but I assume that severely limits options. But make sure people know what those options are, so they can use them if needed, or, more importantly, help a battle buddy get to them. (Some people contemplating suicide may know of the resources, but still not want to use them - they are suicidal, after all.)
Finally, I will say that, in my opinion, very few, if any, commit suicide SOLELY because of toxic leadership. More often than not, when toxic leadership is involved, it is more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" scenarios. Or sometimes "hay bale." Often we cannot do much about toxic leadership, especially when it occurs at echelons above us. But we can mitigate, to some extent, and we can make sure that everything else in that Sailor's life is ship-shape. We can also make sure they have the appropriate skills to cope with that leadership, and even just sit down and talk with the Sailors and give them a "free pass" to vent their spleen (out of earshot of others, of course).
In short, not everything is leadership's fault, and and everything that is leadership's fault is unpreventable. Do what you can, at your level, keep an eye out for the warning signs, and just be a good battle buddy in general.
I have never been a fan of the "you are at fault because your Soldier (Sailor) did a completely unexpected messed up thing" like holding 1SGs accountable when PVT Snuffy goes out and robs a bank. Well 1SG did you tell PVT Snuffy to rob a bank in your weekly safety brief? NO? Well that is obviously the reason he did it, then.
There are times when your Sailors will do things that you never would have expected or thought about. Sometimes suicide is one of those things. But.....
But not often, if you are paying attention. Not everyone who attempts suicide exhibits warning signs, but most do. One of the most important parts of suicide awareness training (or whatever they are calling it these days) is knowing what those warning signs look like IN REALITY. Not just listing them on a slide, but discussing how that would look IN YOUR UNIT. Script out a skit / roleplay. Make it real - use current gripes, problems, or stressors (upcoming sea tour / upcoming shore leave, recent below standard collective ratings, COVID quarantines, etc.). The other of the most important parts of suicide awareness training is resources. Everyone needs to know what resources are available - not for themselves, but for a battle buddy. Make sure they know who to talk to / who to call, and how to get a hold of them. I have never been on a ship at sea, but I assume that severely limits options. But make sure people know what those options are, so they can use them if needed, or, more importantly, help a battle buddy get to them. (Some people contemplating suicide may know of the resources, but still not want to use them - they are suicidal, after all.)
Finally, I will say that, in my opinion, very few, if any, commit suicide SOLELY because of toxic leadership. More often than not, when toxic leadership is involved, it is more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" scenarios. Or sometimes "hay bale." Often we cannot do much about toxic leadership, especially when it occurs at echelons above us. But we can mitigate, to some extent, and we can make sure that everything else in that Sailor's life is ship-shape. We can also make sure they have the appropriate skills to cope with that leadership, and even just sit down and talk with the Sailors and give them a "free pass" to vent their spleen (out of earshot of others, of course).
In short, not everything is leadership's fault, and and everything that is leadership's fault is unpreventable. Do what you can, at your level, keep an eye out for the warning signs, and just be a good battle buddy in general.
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So, what is the definition of "Toxic Leadership"? A quick Google search-->A toxic leader is a person who has responsibility over a group of people or an organization, and who abuses the leader–follower relationship by leaving the group or organization in a worse condition than when they first found them.
Sounds pretty text Book to me. I work in a two legged leadership shop...I have the front line responsibility of relational interaction to get stuff done. A lot of times, I have to do the work load and or share with my team. No biggie, a few catch on, some don't. Those that do, are given my leeway with directions and performance, where the ones that are spoon fed are trained and retrained. At some time, they have to be asked, 'Do you understand what you are supposed to be doing?' 'Am I affording you the correct support?' 'Is there something that is distracting you from being able to do this?'...a multitude of questions that are up front, demanding in the sense that if you are lying or embellishing, those attributes will flush out sooner than later.
I am as honest and brutally candid with my team on performance and aptitude in carrying out the task's they were hired to do. We publish those tasks with "YOU NEED THIS ABILITIES" and "These would be nice to have, but not necessary up front".
When you cannot perform those duties and tasks you were hired for, you become a performance and financial liability. Realizing that you are over your head is 90% of the battle. Me pointing it out to you over a period of time becomes "Toxic Leadership" because I've hurt your feelings and made you feel bad. Your ability to cope, compartmentalize and better yet realize that you do not have what it takes to do the basic's would do wonders. Humble pie taste's like shit at first, but soon takes on a savory flavor of understanding.
We as a society have forgotten the art of managing ourselves, our lives, or social skills and the list goes on. People have gotten so used to having things done for them without knowing how they are done, it's laughable at best and disgusting at the point of just outright disappointment.
My children...I've taught them how to change the oil in their vehicle, the brakes, the tire, windshield wipers, air filter, clean their rooms, make food, clean the dishes, wash their clothes, manage their money, pay their bills, to do things that they might not feel like doing but need to be done. This is where it starts.
Yes, we all meet assholes in life, that have smarts but no people skills of social skills or take offense of your talents and skills...whatever....deal with it. When I was in Saudi for 6 months with nothing to do but my job, sleep, crap, shower, eat, work out, shoot the shit and play GameBoy, it got monotonous and some people were ready to take off into the desert to get away from it all, shoot themselves or do harm to others...got it...I dealt with it. the air war then the ground war started and was over. We sat around for three more months doing jackshit and that was worse than waiting to do something.
Had to deal with that nitwittery...command started making shit up that would lead one to reason with the sanity of the person who made the shit up. Still, got on with getting on. There were those who cried out for help and the command was indifferent, we had three suicides, all based on state side relation issues. Since at the time I wasn't married or even dating, that was not an impact on my life...pure sheer boredom yeah...but somehow I got through that craziness.
Over the 29 years from 1984 to 2013, i saw more and more apathetic attitudes at all levels...I had to take a Lt. Col. to the side and asked them if they were alright...as in "Dude, what the fuck is going on in your life right now"?...yeah they were taken aback form the direct and pretty much disrespectful approach, but it did snap them back to reality a little...enough to get them on the first thing smoking to get the fuck outta the sandbox. I have been in contact with them twice since they have retired and it appears they are getting on in life.
As a leader, if you aren't involved and asking the questions that bring out the truth, your just marking time. I'm not saying go play strip poker with the whole team, but having chats with your team from bottom to top should be something you do...it can be during off time...at the chow hall (DFAC) or just in passing, don't act like you have a board up your ass and don't get all jiggy with them. Stay even keel and write shit down, follow up with them on family stuff...don't solve their problems, but don't ignore them either. Show them that you have a direction for them, and utilize the talents they do have..and for the life of Pete, do not pass them off to a different command with the issues you seem to not want to identify or have trouble yourself...talk to your people...know them...nudge them in the correct direction...is it hard, time consuming and sometimes a hassle? Yep, but so is writing a letter to the folks telling them their kid offed themselves because no one understood the,.
Sounds pretty text Book to me. I work in a two legged leadership shop...I have the front line responsibility of relational interaction to get stuff done. A lot of times, I have to do the work load and or share with my team. No biggie, a few catch on, some don't. Those that do, are given my leeway with directions and performance, where the ones that are spoon fed are trained and retrained. At some time, they have to be asked, 'Do you understand what you are supposed to be doing?' 'Am I affording you the correct support?' 'Is there something that is distracting you from being able to do this?'...a multitude of questions that are up front, demanding in the sense that if you are lying or embellishing, those attributes will flush out sooner than later.
I am as honest and brutally candid with my team on performance and aptitude in carrying out the task's they were hired to do. We publish those tasks with "YOU NEED THIS ABILITIES" and "These would be nice to have, but not necessary up front".
When you cannot perform those duties and tasks you were hired for, you become a performance and financial liability. Realizing that you are over your head is 90% of the battle. Me pointing it out to you over a period of time becomes "Toxic Leadership" because I've hurt your feelings and made you feel bad. Your ability to cope, compartmentalize and better yet realize that you do not have what it takes to do the basic's would do wonders. Humble pie taste's like shit at first, but soon takes on a savory flavor of understanding.
We as a society have forgotten the art of managing ourselves, our lives, or social skills and the list goes on. People have gotten so used to having things done for them without knowing how they are done, it's laughable at best and disgusting at the point of just outright disappointment.
My children...I've taught them how to change the oil in their vehicle, the brakes, the tire, windshield wipers, air filter, clean their rooms, make food, clean the dishes, wash their clothes, manage their money, pay their bills, to do things that they might not feel like doing but need to be done. This is where it starts.
Yes, we all meet assholes in life, that have smarts but no people skills of social skills or take offense of your talents and skills...whatever....deal with it. When I was in Saudi for 6 months with nothing to do but my job, sleep, crap, shower, eat, work out, shoot the shit and play GameBoy, it got monotonous and some people were ready to take off into the desert to get away from it all, shoot themselves or do harm to others...got it...I dealt with it. the air war then the ground war started and was over. We sat around for three more months doing jackshit and that was worse than waiting to do something.
Had to deal with that nitwittery...command started making shit up that would lead one to reason with the sanity of the person who made the shit up. Still, got on with getting on. There were those who cried out for help and the command was indifferent, we had three suicides, all based on state side relation issues. Since at the time I wasn't married or even dating, that was not an impact on my life...pure sheer boredom yeah...but somehow I got through that craziness.
Over the 29 years from 1984 to 2013, i saw more and more apathetic attitudes at all levels...I had to take a Lt. Col. to the side and asked them if they were alright...as in "Dude, what the fuck is going on in your life right now"?...yeah they were taken aback form the direct and pretty much disrespectful approach, but it did snap them back to reality a little...enough to get them on the first thing smoking to get the fuck outta the sandbox. I have been in contact with them twice since they have retired and it appears they are getting on in life.
As a leader, if you aren't involved and asking the questions that bring out the truth, your just marking time. I'm not saying go play strip poker with the whole team, but having chats with your team from bottom to top should be something you do...it can be during off time...at the chow hall (DFAC) or just in passing, don't act like you have a board up your ass and don't get all jiggy with them. Stay even keel and write shit down, follow up with them on family stuff...don't solve their problems, but don't ignore them either. Show them that you have a direction for them, and utilize the talents they do have..and for the life of Pete, do not pass them off to a different command with the issues you seem to not want to identify or have trouble yourself...talk to your people...know them...nudge them in the correct direction...is it hard, time consuming and sometimes a hassle? Yep, but so is writing a letter to the folks telling them their kid offed themselves because no one understood the,.
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I am not a professional of mental health; but I am going to try to comment responsibly over the topic of suicide. I believe that the initial medical screening when we are recruited as an soldier of the Arm Forces; should be more aggressive in detecting possible suicide. If for some reasons a military personnel is recruited and was not revealing any sign of possible depression in that time; then during his military carrier he develop a health condition of depression; are administrative chain of command leadership should receive training in how to detect possible suicide members. Part of are vision and mission is always be part of a team of warrior that care for are band of military brothers. So God help us.
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Good Morning sir, to combat suicide and depression at a local leadership level I personally believe that small unit leadership should be emphasized. Doing this will benefit not only the NCO's (Petty Officers) within the command but will also give the junior sailors someone to really look up to. My Marines always know that they can come to me with whatever issues they have whether they be personal, professional and sometimes both. This has sometimes lead to them having me talk directly to their families and offering my insight to certain situations, and solving them! (it does not always work like that though) all this being done without my SNCO getting distracted by it. Know your Sailors and look out for their welfare.
However, I have also the same training that yourself and your Sailors "received" and can recognize when a Marine is a true risk to himself or others, at which point I escalate the situation to a higher echelon of care, starting with the Chaplain.
However, I have also the same training that yourself and your Sailors "received" and can recognize when a Marine is a true risk to himself or others, at which point I escalate the situation to a higher echelon of care, starting with the Chaplain.
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Cpl (Join to see)
On a side note sir, don't pay to much mind to those meme pages, they are more toxic then they could ever claim leadership to be.
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Leadership, should be quick to see, bullying within the e1 e2 e3 situation, and solve it. Sometimes the most injured is the most quiet.
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