Posted on Nov 11, 2015
What are your thoughts on the "Fight for $15?"
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Fast food and other service workers are uniting to demand the minimum wage be set at $15 an hour. They also want a union. What are your thoughts? The personal feelings I have are mixed. Fast food is supposed to be a starter job for most. Of course I don't live in a large city. But then again, most fast food workers I have encountered aren't the sharpest spork in the plastic wrap. What say you?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 130
No, it shouldn't. An increase in the minimum wage may seem a great idea to some, but we are not looking at what this will do to the economy. Increasing the minimum wage does not increase peoples odds of moving into the middle class, it increases their stagnation in these non skilled positions and reduces their motivation for a better job and life. These minimum wage jobs are ment for high school students, and those either trying to get into the work force or get back into it. They arent ment as careers to sustain a family. With the right training and schooling people can move up withing these companies, from minimum wage to management and so on but when I was working at Wal-Mart as a 16 year old, I wasnt aspiring to one day be a Store Manager. Come on! This will also only serve to reduce the number of jobs, employers will not be able to maintain the number of workers that they have at higher levels of pay, it is a reality that people need to understand. If minimum wage doubles, jobs will be lost.
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I totally disagree with raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Minimum wage jobs are generally meant to be entry level jobs that enable individuals to start getting experience before looking for something better. Another issue is that they are generally unskilled labor jobs. I am a skilled telecom technician with 13 years in the low voltage and telecom fields and due to a layoff I now don't make much more than the $15 dollar an hour. A co-worker of mine and I have had several talks about this and we both agree that it is not a good idea. Those of us in skilled trades who don't make much might see it along the lines as an insult to us. Anyone can flip a burger but it takes someone with skill and knowledge to work on telecom equipment. A $15 an hour minimum wage is not a good move for this country.
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I feel that this idea is one of the most mind blowing idea's brought up. I feel that we all have to start somewhere in our lives and need to progress from there. The fact that people want the minimum wage just shows that people aren't willing to work for a higher position of employment. The fact that a minimum wage job should have a starting salary of roughly 28,000 just for a low end job. This would cause issues such as managers that get paid around this would want more pay for their positions that they worked. This will only drive down the value of the dollar even more than it already is. This is something that shouldn't be even up for consideration in my opinion.
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Horrible idea...While this sounds appealing at face value, one can easily recognize those nasty "unintended consequences," which lurk upon deeper inspection.
Do a quick thought experiment...imagine a law put in place that would double the wages of everyone. If you are making $20k a year, now you are making $40k. If you are making $300 million, you are now making $600 million. Is anyone really richer? Will economics not bring everything back into equilibrium. Now everything is going to cost twice as much, which leaves us where?
Don't like that point...what about all the small businesses that are going to be hammered because they are going to have to shed jobs. The profits will go down, the ones that the law is "trying to help" are going to have higher unemployment rates. Now who pays? Well, the simple answer is you and me, the taxpayer. We should probably extend unemployment benefits indefinitely if we want to put this law into place. We'll probably have to tax the $15.00/hour worker at 50% to make it worth it for all the displaced workers.
You will price out the low skilled, less educated workers and create an underemployment problem. Now, the college educated, unemployed individual who was holding out for a $15.00/hour job is standing in place of the equally (or perhaps more) capable individual who really needs the job and doesn't have the same education level.
Market clearing wages correspond with the value added provided by the work. I will readily concede to dissenters that sometimes the wages are too sticky and some people are being over or under-compensated, but this is just the way things are, and they are temporary as economics pushes things back to equilibrium.
With that kind of law in place, expect a lot more outsourcing. Again, this hurts those we are "trying to help."
Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime. A more compelling solution would be to properly and prudently incentivize our workforce to fill more value added jobs. With that comes rising "real" wages versus rising nominal wages.
This is not an all inclusive list of reasons to not mandate an artificially high minimum wage. We should allow federalism to take place--those states that want to put this policy in place, go for it; those that don't, don't. We'll see how it turns out. My bet is two to one odds that the states that don't will be much better off and so will its citizens.
Do a quick thought experiment...imagine a law put in place that would double the wages of everyone. If you are making $20k a year, now you are making $40k. If you are making $300 million, you are now making $600 million. Is anyone really richer? Will economics not bring everything back into equilibrium. Now everything is going to cost twice as much, which leaves us where?
Don't like that point...what about all the small businesses that are going to be hammered because they are going to have to shed jobs. The profits will go down, the ones that the law is "trying to help" are going to have higher unemployment rates. Now who pays? Well, the simple answer is you and me, the taxpayer. We should probably extend unemployment benefits indefinitely if we want to put this law into place. We'll probably have to tax the $15.00/hour worker at 50% to make it worth it for all the displaced workers.
You will price out the low skilled, less educated workers and create an underemployment problem. Now, the college educated, unemployed individual who was holding out for a $15.00/hour job is standing in place of the equally (or perhaps more) capable individual who really needs the job and doesn't have the same education level.
Market clearing wages correspond with the value added provided by the work. I will readily concede to dissenters that sometimes the wages are too sticky and some people are being over or under-compensated, but this is just the way things are, and they are temporary as economics pushes things back to equilibrium.
With that kind of law in place, expect a lot more outsourcing. Again, this hurts those we are "trying to help."
Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime. A more compelling solution would be to properly and prudently incentivize our workforce to fill more value added jobs. With that comes rising "real" wages versus rising nominal wages.
This is not an all inclusive list of reasons to not mandate an artificially high minimum wage. We should allow federalism to take place--those states that want to put this policy in place, go for it; those that don't, don't. We'll see how it turns out. My bet is two to one odds that the states that don't will be much better off and so will its citizens.
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"Minimum Wages and Poverty: Will a $9.50 Federal Minimum Wage Really Help the
Working Poor?" Joseph J. Sabia* and Richard V. Burkhauser, Southern Economic Journal 2010, 76(3), 592–623
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If you figure up the minimum wage all before taxes, it comes to $28800...that's working a 40 hour week. Let's put things in perspective...an E-1 entry level that "works" way over 40 hours a week makes $19,198 and is in combat, deployed, away form family etc. It takes them four years and a promotion to E-4 to make the $28,800 that the minimum wage request is asking for. Now brake down the average time the military person is working let's just be conservative 60 hours a week that comes to an E-4 with over four years, leading men in combat and other challenges making roughly $10 dollars an hour...and like I said, that is real conservative on the hours.
SOOOO to answer your question...unskilled labor making $15 an hour...HECKS NAW
SOOOO to answer your question...unskilled labor making $15 an hour...HECKS NAW
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It's overdue, but my fear is that Uncle Sam will take more in taxes otherwise inflation will be the other of the day...prices of goods and service will go up and then we'd be back to the starting point.
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CH (MAJ) William Beaver sinxe fast food is no longer just a kids job, people need a living wage.
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This is an absurd proposition at the git-go. Many others here have covered the skill set versus value to employer issue so I won't bother with that. There was a time, say a decade ago for round figures, where there were no employees. People were being picked off park benches to do just about any kind of job. That was when labor was in the lead economically. That changed. Now management is in the lead. And can be more choosesy. And therein lies the crunch. If I as an employer can get someone to do job "A" for $7.50/hr, why would I not? It is labor. One of the few factors governing true capitalism. (And understand this too. The USA is no longer a capitalist economy. Hasn't been for decades, so don't delude yourself.)
Now as an employer I have a broad selection of people to choose from. High school kids, the retired looking for some egg money, the significant other who just wants to improve the familial lot in life etc. So I have to choose someone to do job "A". Can that person reasonably understand English (read as "How many mistakes/order errors am I willing to tolerate from this person); can they count money (not needed if they can punch the keys correctly; already programmed for them), are they multiskilled, etc.
Now the politics of it. These people, between ALL of them, don't have a clue what they are asking for. It is the ultimate "Me" generation. Not one has asked the owner the effect of their action on the business. Since not one of them understands the requirements of a near-capitalist society, they are prime targets for the Left (read union), who in this country, have decimated the steel industry, the car industry in this country, and many others. Classical Marxism for "the poor", the "downtrodden" and so on. Ready to fight 'THE MAN'.
So assume enough politicians sign on to their whining plan and they get a union to buy into it and get their pay raised to $15.00/hr.
Now I am going to change the roles. Now I am their landlord. Whatever hole they were renting for $600/mo now goes to what? $800? $900 a month. Why? Because I know they have not changed jobs a they are making a lot more money. Guess what? I want part of that "raise" money. Or they can move out. Not so easy when you have little actual "skills", barely speak English and have anywhere from 1 to x kids you're responsible for. Oh, by the way, once you reach that level of income, you're gonna' lose a lot of government benefits, WIC, Medicaid etc. And some Federal tax deductions as well. So the answer, as it was in Washington state, is to demand just enough of a raise to KEEP FROM LOSING BENEFITS. Of course. Of course. So they want to have their cake and eat it too.
See? And by the way, their health insurance. Yeah, that and a lot more will go up. Know why? Because that pool of money increased! That is why Senators and Representatives like to fight like hell to keep DoD facilities in their state. They are economic engines.
So, in summary, these are idiots. They can be easily replaced. If nothing else, bring in a lot of Chinese for "cultural exchanges" to get around the H1B requirements. Of course, they could be replaced by illegal immigrants if the business wants to run that particular risk. And it can be done now before they are unionized and that gets more difficult. If they think they are so valuable, let them show management, who has a vested interest in their performance, how good they are. In other words, what value are you to the business enterprise? Any demonstrated answer beyond "I need the job" might just get them started on a more remunerative path.
Personally, I used to work for a major newspaper a long time ago. They paid well for the positions they offered. Just well enough to keep the unions at bay. And some how they still made (and make) gobs of money and stay in business. But I don't recall anyone ever complaining about their pay rate. And this was in 1969!
Now as an employer I have a broad selection of people to choose from. High school kids, the retired looking for some egg money, the significant other who just wants to improve the familial lot in life etc. So I have to choose someone to do job "A". Can that person reasonably understand English (read as "How many mistakes/order errors am I willing to tolerate from this person); can they count money (not needed if they can punch the keys correctly; already programmed for them), are they multiskilled, etc.
Now the politics of it. These people, between ALL of them, don't have a clue what they are asking for. It is the ultimate "Me" generation. Not one has asked the owner the effect of their action on the business. Since not one of them understands the requirements of a near-capitalist society, they are prime targets for the Left (read union), who in this country, have decimated the steel industry, the car industry in this country, and many others. Classical Marxism for "the poor", the "downtrodden" and so on. Ready to fight 'THE MAN'.
So assume enough politicians sign on to their whining plan and they get a union to buy into it and get their pay raised to $15.00/hr.
Now I am going to change the roles. Now I am their landlord. Whatever hole they were renting for $600/mo now goes to what? $800? $900 a month. Why? Because I know they have not changed jobs a they are making a lot more money. Guess what? I want part of that "raise" money. Or they can move out. Not so easy when you have little actual "skills", barely speak English and have anywhere from 1 to x kids you're responsible for. Oh, by the way, once you reach that level of income, you're gonna' lose a lot of government benefits, WIC, Medicaid etc. And some Federal tax deductions as well. So the answer, as it was in Washington state, is to demand just enough of a raise to KEEP FROM LOSING BENEFITS. Of course. Of course. So they want to have their cake and eat it too.
See? And by the way, their health insurance. Yeah, that and a lot more will go up. Know why? Because that pool of money increased! That is why Senators and Representatives like to fight like hell to keep DoD facilities in their state. They are economic engines.
So, in summary, these are idiots. They can be easily replaced. If nothing else, bring in a lot of Chinese for "cultural exchanges" to get around the H1B requirements. Of course, they could be replaced by illegal immigrants if the business wants to run that particular risk. And it can be done now before they are unionized and that gets more difficult. If they think they are so valuable, let them show management, who has a vested interest in their performance, how good they are. In other words, what value are you to the business enterprise? Any demonstrated answer beyond "I need the job" might just get them started on a more remunerative path.
Personally, I used to work for a major newspaper a long time ago. They paid well for the positions they offered. Just well enough to keep the unions at bay. And some how they still made (and make) gobs of money and stay in business. But I don't recall anyone ever complaining about their pay rate. And this was in 1969!
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This is a subject near and dear, I started working minimum wage jobs at a young age, and looking for a job. With that said I don't even support this, but I do "like" the Facebook pages because I am curious about this subject and want to know more and want to follow it closer. Long post ahead, don't say I didn't warn you.
I worked fast food and grocery before I joined the military. I have been working since I was 16 years old - my father told me you are either bringing the books home and studying, or getting a job. I started working two weeks later flipping burgers at Burger King. I was there nearly three years. Then I quit that job and worked at a grocery store for a year, then joined the military at age 20. I grew up right near Fort Drum, and those were the main jobs and the main why I joined the military because there was no future in Watertown, NY. My family did great because my parents had jobs with the state. Mother worked for the court system for many years, father was law enforcement for many years, then worked as an electrician and they both retired from said jobs.
Do I think McDonalds and Wal-Mart could and should raise wages? Sure, why not, but $15 an hour? How about no. Maybe a little bit more, but no more than $10 an hour, and that's after working there for a period of time. When I worked at Burger King, the franchise company who owned the restaurant I worked at had a turnover goal of 130% and what a waste to be paying $15 to someone who is going to quit a week or two later. I doubt they would stay if they were making more money, because in the nearly three years I was there, I don’t think anyone quit because of the money. Everyone quit for other reasons. In fact, the Burger King I worked for was really awesome with hours and during the summers I was nearly working full time. I had a friend making $10 an hour working at Pier 1 Imports, but I got more hours than he did, and made more money a week than he did even though I had a lower wage. I was pretty proud of that hard work, even though he was spoiled rotten and didn't need to work. Yes I bitched about the job, and looking back I was a dipshit about the whole thing, sorry.
One thing to consider is that many fast food restaurants are franchised, and those franchise owners they don’t actually make that much unless they own many restaurants or stores, or other business ventures because the franchise fees are very high. I knew of a franchise owner of a few McDonalds (less than five) and trust me he wasn’t making that much money and living like a king. Raising the minimum wage to $15, well those small franchise owners who put the pants on just like you and me would go bankrupt pretty quickly.
And this may get me down voted and flamed, but let’s say people were making $15 tomorrow right away...I really doubt many of those workers will be doing the right thing with the money and living within their means and/or their quality of life will improve. If you give people more money, they will obviously spend it. But will they spend it wisely? The common trend I have noticed with many of these people protesting, they have more children they can support or try and live beyond their means. I don't think condoms are very expensive.
I worked fast food and grocery before I joined the military. I have been working since I was 16 years old - my father told me you are either bringing the books home and studying, or getting a job. I started working two weeks later flipping burgers at Burger King. I was there nearly three years. Then I quit that job and worked at a grocery store for a year, then joined the military at age 20. I grew up right near Fort Drum, and those were the main jobs and the main why I joined the military because there was no future in Watertown, NY. My family did great because my parents had jobs with the state. Mother worked for the court system for many years, father was law enforcement for many years, then worked as an electrician and they both retired from said jobs.
Do I think McDonalds and Wal-Mart could and should raise wages? Sure, why not, but $15 an hour? How about no. Maybe a little bit more, but no more than $10 an hour, and that's after working there for a period of time. When I worked at Burger King, the franchise company who owned the restaurant I worked at had a turnover goal of 130% and what a waste to be paying $15 to someone who is going to quit a week or two later. I doubt they would stay if they were making more money, because in the nearly three years I was there, I don’t think anyone quit because of the money. Everyone quit for other reasons. In fact, the Burger King I worked for was really awesome with hours and during the summers I was nearly working full time. I had a friend making $10 an hour working at Pier 1 Imports, but I got more hours than he did, and made more money a week than he did even though I had a lower wage. I was pretty proud of that hard work, even though he was spoiled rotten and didn't need to work. Yes I bitched about the job, and looking back I was a dipshit about the whole thing, sorry.
One thing to consider is that many fast food restaurants are franchised, and those franchise owners they don’t actually make that much unless they own many restaurants or stores, or other business ventures because the franchise fees are very high. I knew of a franchise owner of a few McDonalds (less than five) and trust me he wasn’t making that much money and living like a king. Raising the minimum wage to $15, well those small franchise owners who put the pants on just like you and me would go bankrupt pretty quickly.
And this may get me down voted and flamed, but let’s say people were making $15 tomorrow right away...I really doubt many of those workers will be doing the right thing with the money and living within their means and/or their quality of life will improve. If you give people more money, they will obviously spend it. But will they spend it wisely? The common trend I have noticed with many of these people protesting, they have more children they can support or try and live beyond their means. I don't think condoms are very expensive.
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