Posted on Jul 18, 2015
Still like Trump after his attack on John McCain?
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From what I understand, Donald Trump was stating that John McCain is an acclaimed hero because he was captured, but those who weren't captured are just as much heroes. Except those who weren't captured are given little to no recognition for what they did. I am not aware of any actions that John McCain has done in political office to support veterans. I'm not saying nothing has been done, but it's not public knowledge. As with most politics, someone says one think that can be taken wrong and all of society freaks out. Give him the benefit of the doubt, Donald Trump has said that McCain is a war hero. I personally don't think everyone is a hero just for serving. Please tell me how Chelsea Manning, Bowe Bergdahl, Nidal Hasan and many others are 'heroes'. Our ranks are full of toxic leaders and troops with a distinct lack of ethics, so forgive me if I don't consider them heroes. Please for the love of God, stop attacking people for having a different opinion.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
No, we aren't debating that at all. I'm simply stating that Donald Trump is entitled to his opinion. The fact that you decided Donald Trump was accusing John McCain of not being a hero from some words taken out of context is your opinion. Donald Trump has stated that McCain is a hero multiple times as you continue to reference, so I'm not sure why you continue to be upset by this. The U.S military considers him a hero and that's the only opinion that should matter. Donald Trump is entitled to have an opinion on the matter, same as everyone else. Even if Trump didn't think McCain was a hero, that is his right and his name doesn't deserve your slander for exercising these rights. I'm sure none of the jihadi terrorists think of our military as heroes, so clearly the definition is not a irrefutable fact. If you really want to argue about this definition then tell me if your past actions were heroic, but none of your actions in the past few decades have been, does that still make you a hero? John McCain WAS a hero, whether he still is with the achievements in his current position remains to be seen.
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Capt Lance Gallardo
Sgt. Wiley, the vast majority of the American People think John McCain's actions are and were heroic, along with the other captured Airmen POWs that Donald Trump slandered by inference when he said "I like people that did not get captured." We are not talking about whether or not anyone else's opinion about who is or who is not a war hero other than Americans and more specifically those who are declared Presidential Candidates who are supposedly serious about getting registered-to-vote, Americans to vote for them. I have watched the video probably ten times now, and read the transcripts of exactly what he said. No amount of Donald's spin will take back what Trump said and the spirit and manner in which he said it. If he really wanted to get out of the hole he has put himself in with his outrageous comments he should do what any other conscientious American does when they have realized they have given offense-make a sincere apology to John McCain and his fellow POWs. Unfortunately Donald Trump's character seems to be completely deficient of the ability to make a sincere apology to anyone, and/or he lacks the empathy to know when his words have hurt people like these incredible American heroes and POWs who have already suffered enough pain for several lifetimes. Are YOU really that INSENSITIVE to the pain Trump's comments have caused to the Heroes who survived the hell of the Hanoi Hilton and their family and friends, when a leading Republican Candidate for Highest office in our country can spout his hurtful "Opinion," as you continue to insist his slander is. I doubt you would give such a pass to Jane Fonda or other Lefty Anti-Vietnam War Protestors, or a Liberal Democratic Candidate for President like the self-described Socialist Bernie Sanders if he was the one who said what Donald Trump said, spouting their "opinion" that all who served in Vietnam were "Baby Killers" or worse adjectives. I have already called out John McCain in your thread above for not always being supportive of Vets, and I am not a dyed in the wool fan of John McCain the politician. Is your support of Donald Trump so blind that you can't see that his "opinion" is SLANDER of the worst kind when it comes to outrageous statements and innuendo like "I like people who didn't get captured," (implying that anyone who was captured after being shot down was somehow less of a Hero than someone who served in Vietnam and did not get captured) and this from a Vietnam War Draft Dodger who got THREE deferments to avoid the draft, and has lied repeatedly about how High his draft number was (implying that it was the draft lottery, and not his three deferments that he applied for and received, that is what kept him from being drafted into the US Military during the Vietnam War), and has in the past made his intent to avoid going to Vietnam very clear, in that he did not support the Vietnam War. Donald keeps telling us that he is the smartest and best educated person in the room. Getting himself jammed up in this stupid, a "you will never win this war of words about whether or not you think John McCain is or was a war hero," shows that Donald is not as smart as he thinks, and that he lacks self-awareness, self-reflection, self-understanding, or a willingness to make himself a better person by knowing himself and seeking self-improvement, and the wisdom to know when it is time to admit you made a mistake in something you said or did, and take corrective action, like making a sincere apology. Donald Trumps doubles down on his stupidity and this incident is showing it better than anything I can think of. It is really scary to me that any Veteran or serving US Military would not see his lack of character to be the Commander in Chief as a completely disqualifying and fatal flaw for someone aspiring to be the President of the United States. Or maybe too many Americans (including Vets and AD Military) are cynical or jaded enough that they no longer consider fitness for office or a candidate's character to be a fundamental and indispensable trait for running for President or actually becoming President.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
No, I don't see his opinion as slander, because an opinion can't be slander. As slander is a false statement that damages a reputation. If it's an opinion, it's a subjective belief and therefore not a false statement. Regardless of Donald Trump's words it did not damage John McCain's reputation, but did damage Donald Trump's so please stop using the term slander incorrectly. All I see are unreasonable arguments on your part, and all over this tread, so I am going to ask you once and only once to please stop instigating an argument that is based solely on your opinion. Be respectful of my opinion and Donald Trump's opinion regardless of whether or not you agree with it. I do not care if you continue to reply to this thread, but I will not continue to argue the same points over and over again.
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
I see the point in where Donald Trump is coming from, though his words were less than perfect. Simply stated, he said the only thing that made John McCain anything was the fact that he was captured and a POW, not because he was a good at his job. McCain was a sub-par pilot, wrecking two planes, reckless, and irresponsible. He achieved celebrity and POW poster boy status as a result of his confinement. He was, however, compassionate and emphatic. He did what any SM would have done in confinement equal to their rank and stayed behind. I find that very noble. But like I said, it may have been the wrong choice of words, but technically right.
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THE BADDEST OF THE BAD! US Navy Lieutenant, Naval Flight Officer George Thomas Coker- This is the kind of man Donald Trump spit on with his comments about losers who got shot down and then captured.
Read what Coker endured and what he DID with his escape and what the North Vietnamese DID TO HIM for his Heroic Resistance and tell me Trump's comments don't outrage you as some of the worst slander on our Best People you have heard since the "baby killers" invective showering our Returning Sailors, Airmen,GIs and Marines during the Vietnam War.
"Spent two years alone in a windowless concrete cell measuring 3 feet by 9 feet that had a light bulb kept on around the clock. He was locked each night in irons by a guard. Coker remained in "Alcatraz" until December 9, 1969 and spent the next three years in captivity shuffled between a number of different prisons.[17]" How this man did not go completely crazy is a miracle and a testament to his grit, and why his fellow POWs held him in the highest of Esteem. His example, and others like him help caused the North Vietnamese to abandon their harsh treatment of the POWS. Coker ministered to his fellow POWS despite his own hardships and deprivations. His selflessness and service to his fellow POWs epitomized what we all hoped to become when we enlisted or became Officers in the US Military. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 KJV Bible
From his Wikipedia Page
During his captivity, Coker was notable for the ferocity with which he resisted his incarceration.[5][21][22] Coker was considered one of "the baddest of the baddest" of the POWs, a reference to his stubborn resistance to his captivity.[23] Coker's Silver Star Medal citation cited his fierce resistance as one of the significant reasons the North Vietnamese eventually abandoned harsh treatment of the prisoners.[24] Coker served as Chaplain to his fellow prisoners while he was in captivity, providing them with spiritual guidance and constructive counseling. For these efforts, he was awarded the Legion of Merit.[25]
In July 1967, Coker devised "unusual and ingenious methods" to allow his fellow prisoners to communicate with each other within their camp, assisting their collective efforts to resist their captor's demands and improving the morale of American and Allied POWs. For his "heroic achievement", Coker was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V".[26]
That year, Coker and Air Force Captain George McKnight (another of the "baddest") conceived an escape plan. The two would escape from their cells and make it to the nearby Red River, swim by night and hide by day, estimating that it would take three or four days to reach the mouth of the river. There they would commandeer a boat and make it out to sea where they hoped to flag down a ship of the United States Seventh Fleet, estimating that it would take eight days from their escape until their rescue.[27] The two removed the hinges from their cell and escaped from Dirty Bird prison in Hanoi the night of October 12, 1967, climbed to the roof of the prison block and jumped to another roof to escape. They tied themselves together to avoid separation and jumped into the Red River near the Tanwa Bridge. That night they made it 15 miles downstream in the dark and hid in the mud on the river's edge at daybreak. The two were recaptured 12½ hours after they had escaped when they were spotted by fishermen along the shore early that morning and were handed over to soldiers. They were held in irons at Hoa Lo prison before being returned to Dirty Bird a few days later.[20][27][28][29] Their effort made them two of the very few POWs to ever escape from a North Vietnamese POW camp. Coker was awarded the Navy Cross, the Navy's highest award for heroism, for his actions in his attempted escape as a prisoner of war.[30] The citation reads in part:
...for extraordinary heroism during an extremely daring escape from a solitary confinement cell while a Prisoner of War in Hanoi, North Vietnam on October 12, 1967. During a period of particularly harsh treatment, Lieutenant Commander Coker and another prisoner executed an escape as a two-man team despite the high risk of brutal reprisal or possible loss of life. That night, after opening the cell door by removing door bolt brackets from inside the room, he proceeded over the wall and through several blocks of housing to the Domer Bridge. Walking under the bridge to the Red River's edge, he swam downstream all night and at sunrise buried himself in a mudbank in an effort to remain concealed. He was later discovered, recaptured, severely beaten for many hours, and banished to solitary confinement for two and a half years.[31][32]
On October 25, 1967, Coker was one of 11 of the most effective resisters, among the 267 POWs then held, who were placed in a special facility in a courtyard behind the North Vietnamese Ministry of National Defense, soon nicknamed "Alcatraz", located about one mile away from Hoa Lo Prison. Coker and McKnight were added to nine prisoners who had been at a facility nicknamed "Vegas": Jeremiah Denton, Harry Jenkins, Sam Johnson, James Mulligan, Howard Rutledge, Robert Shumaker, James Stockdale, Ronald Storz and Nels Tanner. While most of those among the Alcatraz 11 were senior officers, Coker was the youngest and most junior of those isolated from the other POWs.[27][33] The 11, known as the "Alcatraz Gang", were separated from other captives and placed in solitary confinement for their leadership in resisting their captors.[30][34] In Alcatraz, each of the 11 men were kept in solitary confinement. Coker spent two years alone in a windowless concrete cell measuring 3 feet by 9 feet that had a light bulb kept on around the clock. He was locked each night in irons by a guard. Coker remained in Alcatraz until December 9, 1969 and spent the next three years in captivity shuffled between a number of different prisons.[17]
George Thomas Coker shortly after his release from the POW camps in North Vietnam; March 1973.
On March 4, 1973, both Coker and Fellowes were released as part of Operation Homecoming.[20] Vietnam-era POWs were released by order of capture, and Fellowes and Coker were in the second large release group, about No. 123 and #124.[2] Of their 2,382 days in captivity (6.5 years), 2.5 years were in solitary confinement and 2.5 years in the "Hanoi Hilton". They also spent time in several other POW camps around Hanoi. Fellowes retired from the Navy in July 1986[35] and Coker on October 1, 1986.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Thomas_Coker
Read what Coker endured and what he DID with his escape and what the North Vietnamese DID TO HIM for his Heroic Resistance and tell me Trump's comments don't outrage you as some of the worst slander on our Best People you have heard since the "baby killers" invective showering our Returning Sailors, Airmen,GIs and Marines during the Vietnam War.
"Spent two years alone in a windowless concrete cell measuring 3 feet by 9 feet that had a light bulb kept on around the clock. He was locked each night in irons by a guard. Coker remained in "Alcatraz" until December 9, 1969 and spent the next three years in captivity shuffled between a number of different prisons.[17]" How this man did not go completely crazy is a miracle and a testament to his grit, and why his fellow POWs held him in the highest of Esteem. His example, and others like him help caused the North Vietnamese to abandon their harsh treatment of the POWS. Coker ministered to his fellow POWS despite his own hardships and deprivations. His selflessness and service to his fellow POWs epitomized what we all hoped to become when we enlisted or became Officers in the US Military. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 KJV Bible
From his Wikipedia Page
During his captivity, Coker was notable for the ferocity with which he resisted his incarceration.[5][21][22] Coker was considered one of "the baddest of the baddest" of the POWs, a reference to his stubborn resistance to his captivity.[23] Coker's Silver Star Medal citation cited his fierce resistance as one of the significant reasons the North Vietnamese eventually abandoned harsh treatment of the prisoners.[24] Coker served as Chaplain to his fellow prisoners while he was in captivity, providing them with spiritual guidance and constructive counseling. For these efforts, he was awarded the Legion of Merit.[25]
In July 1967, Coker devised "unusual and ingenious methods" to allow his fellow prisoners to communicate with each other within their camp, assisting their collective efforts to resist their captor's demands and improving the morale of American and Allied POWs. For his "heroic achievement", Coker was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V".[26]
That year, Coker and Air Force Captain George McKnight (another of the "baddest") conceived an escape plan. The two would escape from their cells and make it to the nearby Red River, swim by night and hide by day, estimating that it would take three or four days to reach the mouth of the river. There they would commandeer a boat and make it out to sea where they hoped to flag down a ship of the United States Seventh Fleet, estimating that it would take eight days from their escape until their rescue.[27] The two removed the hinges from their cell and escaped from Dirty Bird prison in Hanoi the night of October 12, 1967, climbed to the roof of the prison block and jumped to another roof to escape. They tied themselves together to avoid separation and jumped into the Red River near the Tanwa Bridge. That night they made it 15 miles downstream in the dark and hid in the mud on the river's edge at daybreak. The two were recaptured 12½ hours after they had escaped when they were spotted by fishermen along the shore early that morning and were handed over to soldiers. They were held in irons at Hoa Lo prison before being returned to Dirty Bird a few days later.[20][27][28][29] Their effort made them two of the very few POWs to ever escape from a North Vietnamese POW camp. Coker was awarded the Navy Cross, the Navy's highest award for heroism, for his actions in his attempted escape as a prisoner of war.[30] The citation reads in part:
...for extraordinary heroism during an extremely daring escape from a solitary confinement cell while a Prisoner of War in Hanoi, North Vietnam on October 12, 1967. During a period of particularly harsh treatment, Lieutenant Commander Coker and another prisoner executed an escape as a two-man team despite the high risk of brutal reprisal or possible loss of life. That night, after opening the cell door by removing door bolt brackets from inside the room, he proceeded over the wall and through several blocks of housing to the Domer Bridge. Walking under the bridge to the Red River's edge, he swam downstream all night and at sunrise buried himself in a mudbank in an effort to remain concealed. He was later discovered, recaptured, severely beaten for many hours, and banished to solitary confinement for two and a half years.[31][32]
On October 25, 1967, Coker was one of 11 of the most effective resisters, among the 267 POWs then held, who were placed in a special facility in a courtyard behind the North Vietnamese Ministry of National Defense, soon nicknamed "Alcatraz", located about one mile away from Hoa Lo Prison. Coker and McKnight were added to nine prisoners who had been at a facility nicknamed "Vegas": Jeremiah Denton, Harry Jenkins, Sam Johnson, James Mulligan, Howard Rutledge, Robert Shumaker, James Stockdale, Ronald Storz and Nels Tanner. While most of those among the Alcatraz 11 were senior officers, Coker was the youngest and most junior of those isolated from the other POWs.[27][33] The 11, known as the "Alcatraz Gang", were separated from other captives and placed in solitary confinement for their leadership in resisting their captors.[30][34] In Alcatraz, each of the 11 men were kept in solitary confinement. Coker spent two years alone in a windowless concrete cell measuring 3 feet by 9 feet that had a light bulb kept on around the clock. He was locked each night in irons by a guard. Coker remained in Alcatraz until December 9, 1969 and spent the next three years in captivity shuffled between a number of different prisons.[17]
George Thomas Coker shortly after his release from the POW camps in North Vietnam; March 1973.
On March 4, 1973, both Coker and Fellowes were released as part of Operation Homecoming.[20] Vietnam-era POWs were released by order of capture, and Fellowes and Coker were in the second large release group, about No. 123 and #124.[2] Of their 2,382 days in captivity (6.5 years), 2.5 years were in solitary confinement and 2.5 years in the "Hanoi Hilton". They also spent time in several other POW camps around Hanoi. Fellowes retired from the Navy in July 1986[35] and Coker on October 1, 1986.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Thomas_Coker
George Thomas Coker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
George Thomas Coker (born July 14, 1943) is a retired US Navy Commander, honored with the Navy Cross for his leadership as a prisoner of war (POW) during the Vietnam War, and a Distinguished Eagle Scout noted for his devotion to Scouting.
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Trump's comments were disgraceful about one of the most courageous "war heroes" our nation has ever produced, for enduring what he did at the hands of the North Vietnamese, as well as the combat missions he flew before he was shot down. John Mc Cain was a serving Admiral's son and the North Vietnamese thought he would be a great propaganda tool if they could "turn him" by torture or inducements of better treatment. Nothing worked on him and he stayed true to his commission, his oath of office, and the Code of Conduct, and maybe more importantly to the Brotherhood of his fellow POWs. Unfortunately quite a few of the captured US Aviators broke their Faith and violated all of the above to avoid solitary confinement, torture or just to get the "favors" that were being offered to them. That is well documented and the heroes like John McCain who never violated their code of conduct know who these men were. Trump went way over the line of common decency, and doubled down on his stupidity by refusing to recognize his error and slander, and F__King Apologize for what he said! Rick Perry of all people called him out quickly and condemned him in the harshest terms. Maybe because Rick Perry was an Air Force pilot and probably knows what the Captured US Aviators who kept the faith in the Hanoi Hilton did. I am now understanding why so many vets in Texas, including Navy Seals and Army SF vets are passionate in their support for Rick Perry. Trump is dead to me, as I heard Bill Krystal say this morning on a News program:
RADDATZ: And, Bill Kristol, I think it was just yesterday you did a brief interview with ABC News, calling him older, wiser, richer Donald Trump would be better than Hillary.
Still think that?
BILL KRISTOL: I think he's still older and richer than Hillary Clinton.
KRISTOL: Though if she gives a few more speeches maybe she'll catch up. But, no, I don't think that anymore actually. I think it's one thing, he was a controversial character who said some useful things, I think, and brought some people into the Republican tent. But he jumped the shark (ph) yesterday.
He said to me -- no, seriously --
RADDATZ: -- to you --
KRISTOL: -- yes, seriously, no. I mean, he insulted every veteran, every -- certainly every veteran who's a POW, which is -- with these insane statements about how it's your fault that you're captured or shot down. And with total lack of respect for not just John McCain -- that I think other people made this point, Jim Webb, made this point -- for other people's military service and sacrifice.
So I'm finished with Donald Trump. And I don’t think it's going to -- he'll -- and I don't think -- I don't think he'll stay up in the polls, incidentally. Republican primary voters are pro-respect the military. And he showed disrespect for the military.
RADDATZ: And, Bill Kristol, I think it was just yesterday you did a brief interview with ABC News, calling him older, wiser, richer Donald Trump would be better than Hillary.
Still think that?
BILL KRISTOL: I think he's still older and richer than Hillary Clinton.
KRISTOL: Though if she gives a few more speeches maybe she'll catch up. But, no, I don't think that anymore actually. I think it's one thing, he was a controversial character who said some useful things, I think, and brought some people into the Republican tent. But he jumped the shark (ph) yesterday.
He said to me -- no, seriously --
RADDATZ: -- to you --
KRISTOL: -- yes, seriously, no. I mean, he insulted every veteran, every -- certainly every veteran who's a POW, which is -- with these insane statements about how it's your fault that you're captured or shot down. And with total lack of respect for not just John McCain -- that I think other people made this point, Jim Webb, made this point -- for other people's military service and sacrifice.
So I'm finished with Donald Trump. And I don’t think it's going to -- he'll -- and I don't think -- I don't think he'll stay up in the polls, incidentally. Republican primary voters are pro-respect the military. And he showed disrespect for the military.
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We have had too much of our leadership (Commander in Chief) not recognizing and respecting our military and the sacrifices we have made.
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All Trump is goid for is to shake things up. He has brought attention to alot of items that all other politicians are afrad to.
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CAPT (Join to see)
Backlash is swift and sure when someone proves themselves unfit to be president. http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-service-sparking-stern-republican-backlash/2015/07/18/e9f814c6-2d7e-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html
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CAPT (Join to see)
I agree that it was in extremely poor taste of Trump to say that about CAPT McCain.
With that said, I've come to expect nothing less from anybody running for a major office like POTUS and NOT run a smear campaign. What does surprise me though is McCain isn't even running for office.
To answer your question, yes I still like Trump but he is not my first choice. I would have to say he's my second, possibly third, choice.
I agree that it was in extremely poor taste of Trump to say that about CAPT McCain.
With that said, I've come to expect nothing less from anybody running for a major office like POTUS and NOT run a smear campaign. What does surprise me though is McCain isn't even running for office.
To answer your question, yes I still like Trump but he is not my first choice. I would have to say he's my second, possibly third, choice.
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