Posted on Oct 16, 2014
SFC Steven Harvey
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Let me take a moment to say that I only see my sphere and scope of the Army. I am sure there are other units out there that are still knowledgeable and have exceptional signal leaders. I also want to mention that in no way is this a direct reflection on units as a whole including my own.
If you’re not Signal (specifically 25N, 25Q & possibly 25S, 25B) you might not understand what I am saying.

Anyone who was in during MSE should distinctly remember ARTEP (Army Training and Evaluation Program). When WIN-T replaced MSE that standard that so many of us knew went away. There are justifiable reasons for this; speed of change, complexity of equipment and new MTOE standards. I understand why it was never redone to work with WIN-T.

What I do not understand is why the very fundamentals of our jobs have been forgotten. How no one understands the value of crew drills (or even knows what it is), cross training, proper grounding procedures, site security & defense, equipment preparation, convoy operations, site briefs, night time operations, tactical vs. strategic site layouts, HCLOS is never used, no networking standards are ever used, priorities of work, PACE plans, tactical discipline, jumping, recovery operations, what the DC power cable is and why you need it (completely serious) and maintenance (for instance know why keeping your generator level is important) to just get started.

I was on a Special Duty assignment for 6 years and left big Army when WIN-T was just being implemented. So I am out of the “know” so to speak as to what happened during this time frame. I have been seeing it lately from a position where I oversee many different teams and units.

There are so many other things such as the “tricks of the trade” that are known by older guys like duct taping tent stakes to a wooden sledge hammer to prevent your sledge from breaking.

I have been talking with many of my peers over the last month and even some Warrants and Officers. This appears to be larger than just what I see in my area of influence, and there are others who have went a step farther than me and actually acted on this topic such as this website: http://www.signal-chief.com. There Chief Troy discusses broader issues and tries to present units with lessons learned prior to deploying. While he does a remarkable job and has exceptional insight, I want NCOs to tell me what happened to where the rubber meets the road: signal team leaders.

This concerns me greatly because quite frankly this is what I was raised on and it’s what I know. If we have to do another invasion like OIF1, where we are not on a FOB for the entire deployment and the hazards are more than the occasional mortar round then NCOs I’ll be blunt.

It’s not going to turn out well.

Our chiefs are going to lose their #### on NCOs and Soldiers, NCOs will be getting relief of causes, and whole units will probably get bad images.

I don’t blame these young soldiers, and I really don’t want to blame the NCOs (and sometimes can’t because they themselves were never properly trained).

So help me out, what’s your take on this.
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Responses: 35
SFC Peter Cyprian
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SSG Harvey, I totally get what you are saying. I watched it happening before my very eyes just before I retired. I honestly believe it started near the end of MSE and DGM. We evolved from packet switching to having routers in our shelters.....routers that we were not allowed to even touch- even though it was a key component of our shelter! Yeah, we could put the HSMUX and HSMUX 2 cards in and they would even let us do the jumpers, but that router was OFF LIMITS. As a CCNA I was outraged at this. As MSE and DGM went away and the Win-T came into its own, this mentality increased. I used to have a label for this- the "mouse clicker and button pusher syndrome". All the troops knew is that "on this screen I click here, then push this button". Did they know wtf they just did? Nope. Did they do it right? Yes, but if you have no clue WHAT you just did (besides the physical action of clicking and pushing), how effective and technically proficient are you?? I would correct this anytime I ran across it, but I felt like the guy dog paddling against the raging current. Do the troops at least know the fundamentals of electronics? Networking? GROUNDING (great point btw)? Do they know the difference between a power ground and a signal ground? Do they understand what the PEP and the SEP are grounded separately? I could go on all night but I think you "get it" and are on the same page. It needs to be fixed- that's a fact.
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MSG Signal Support Systems Specialist
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>1 y
Roger.

I try to teach actual troubleshooting. Some of them get it. Some of them have to be taught logic first, because it's not taught in schools (supposed to be one of the 7 Liberal Art, and one of the Trivium, what is supposed to be the basis of elementary education, at that).

So we don't troubleshoot and fix problems anymore. We re-image and replace components. IF, that is, if we are allowed. In which case we have to exercise the warranty and send it away to be fixed.
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SSG Cnd Analyst
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9 y
I know for fact as of September 2014, it was being taught in the WIN-T school at Fort Gordon for 25N, but I can't speak for the other MOSs, but they clearly articulated that you will forget a lot of what you have learned and you will need unit-level training to put all the pieces together. However, we were introduced and practiced troubleshooting on Routers and Switches.
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SP5 Michael Rathbun
SP5 Michael Rathbun
9 y
All of our routers were dudes moving plugs around on a patch. System was remarkably resilient.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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9 y
Korea... You will get all that and then some as far as crew drills and competitive teams
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LTC Stephen C.
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Edited >1 y ago
Imagesuu4aep0g
I had an SF signal detachment (two platoons) in the '73-'74 timeframe. We were still using the obsolete but reliable AN/GRC-9 (the old Angry 9). In many instances, voice transmissions were ruled out by distance, and SF communicators relied on continuous wave radio operation, using International Morse Code. The CW key was clipped to the operator's thigh and power was provided by a hand cranked generator. (Internet photo)

SFC Steven Harvey SFC John Gates SFC Peter Cyprian and SSG (Join to see) Sgt Tom Cunnally
SFC Robert Giffin, thought this might interest you.
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LTC Stephen C.
LTC Stephen C.
>1 y
You knew I was an antique when I threw that photo of the Angry 9 up there, SP5 Michael Rathbun!
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SFC Mike Cook
SFC Mike Cook
>1 y
HF truly is a lost art form. When I got to 4th BDE, 101. Only one unit was able to successfully run their HF; which they did in spectacular fashion I will add. After about a year all of their knowledgeable people rotated out and it was lost. When you get the right people in there running it, HF is absolutely magic.
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SGT Michael Touchet
SGT Michael Touchet
>1 y
Inside ratt rig with ugc 74
This is what I started with in 1986 a Radio Teletype Rig (RATT) which featured the AN/GRC 106 HF Radio.
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Sgt Tom Cunnally
Sgt Tom Cunnally
8 y
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In 1st Radio CO FMF quit using the Angry 9 in 1956 & replaced by Collins Radio Receivers and Transmitters mounted in the back of Jeeps and in the Comm Vans. We also carried the PRC 10- 15 with a whip antenna, headset/ handset and their battery packs. We used mostly voice comm but when restricted by distances we switched to Morse Code and tried to maintain @ 10 words a minute.
Most of the Radio Operators in the 1st Radio Co attended the ASA Radio School at Fort Devens MA (26 week course) & the Navy DF School at the Naval Training Center in Charleston SC (10 week course) and Marine Corps Crypto School Camp Lejeune NC (10 Week course) Marines who had been in Korea loved the Angry 9 used in 1950- 1953 because it worked in the cold temps even up a the Frozen Chosin to power their comm equipment. 1st RAD went to Vietnam in 1962 & grew to Battalion size a few years later and it operated out of Pleiku SVN... I missed Vietnam unfortunately
Here's 1st Rad training in Vieques prior to Vietnam. The training in Vieques was to test radio equipment in simulated combat ops & support 1st ANGLICO & 1st Recon comm ops. Many of the guys in this photo were with the 1st sub unit to go to Vietnam in 1962.
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MAJ G2 Systems Chief
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We lost many of those skills because that responsibility was taken out of our hands, or we simply didn't allocate the time to continue to teach it. As the war progressed, technology upgrades poured in, and as the theater developed we lost sight of a lot of the basics (not just signal). Home station train ups became so time sensitive that it seemed like leader development (which comes back to most of the OP's issues) took a back seat to reset, upgrade, train enough for NTC and deploy again. It seemed like you had just enough time to do it once and move on to the next event. In theater there was a contractor to install your equipment for you, fix your broken toys, and commercial telecomm and shore power gradually replaced tactical equipment.

I was an MSE platoon leader in 2004 in Iraq. My battalion commander regularly came around and played stump the chump with the PLs to spot check they were doing things like routine maintenance and understood the basics. I needed an extra kick in the pants since I went from the schoolhouse to leading one of his platoons without being around for the pre-deployment training.

Now that deployments have slowed down quite a bit and our equipment is becoming more "army green" we're relearning how to do it all ourselves again. The contract maintenance is gone and we have more than enough time for leaders to crawl and walk through every step of the process. There's definitely now no excuse for not doing.
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SFC Mike Cook
SFC Mike Cook
>1 y
Completely agree with you on the contractors sir. While it was nice to have a "factory trained" rep on site He became the "go to guy" instead of the "ok this is beyond my ability" guy. That was greatly a product of "lives are on the line and we have to have this up now"! However, this also was a failure of leadership as well. While deployed, I frequently sent my guys out with the contractor to 1. Act as a liaison between the contractor and the unit. And 2. (and more importantly) to look over his shoulder, ask questions and figure it out. If my Soldiers were not doing something mission related, they were working on the equipment with the contractor. Learning it. Not enough Senior NCOs were doing this in my opinion. Some were, just not enough.
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Signal Corps: What happened?
LTC Battalion Commander
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You said signal and leaders in the same sentence and put them together...having spent my entire time in the military after 9/11 in the Signal Corps after joining at the age of 35, it's a shame that the leaders of signal see only the letters after people's names, mandatory training that HAS to take place, training that's done with a fire hose rather than understanding and of course the ever present PMCS and inventory...when training at the school house as an officer, very little if any time is devoted to actually how to train a unit, platoon, section, team or individual but a whole lot on how to CYA...your BOLC infantry experience is supposed to get you to understand how to train, I suppose....your powerpoint presentation is supposed to impress and inspire your subordinates to do their job...how is a 2LT going out to a battalion as their S6 (an O3 slot) going to know how to train that group? How is that 2LT going to convince that XO/S3/BC that it's vitally important to train on Tactical Comms when we utilize our Strategic network both at home and deployed? Hell it's hard enough for that BDE comms commander sitting at some echelon below BDE to know how to do that. Why on earth would I worry about WIN-T when I never use it here stateside? What unit commander is going to "waste" time training that asset? Let alone a whole company of signal that provides dial-up speed for 5 people and links to BDE at a speed of 256up and 256down or at best 4Mb over a LOS system? That 2LT is sunk...that O3 is sunk if they don't have the cohones to push back...take that 2LT out of the S6 slot and into a platoon to provide that key leadership experience with their level of I give a $%^t reduced...it's no wonder that units are having trouble getting trained. I've seen E8's at BDE that last set up VRC-12's now in charge of directing the IOM of WIN-T...that's not just a failure for the E8, they got set up for failure by the Officer Corps. In the active component on deployment, the 2LT/1LT can get rotated out after 30 days to go to CCC while the E5's and below sit in a tent tyring to keep the links together...inspirational I'm sure. If the 2LT's are not highly motivated to look out for their troops and not willing to push back on that field grade for training time, you get what you've seen...then those beaten up, abused untrained 2LT's grow into field grades with all the bad habits and attitudes instilled in them by getting pushed around and no training. And I'm sorry but not all of us get to live our lives in a Signal Battalion or BDE...generally the mission still happens because some non-comm or junior enlisted is high speed enough to get everyone's job done while working 18 hour days...and for this they get an AAM if they get recognized at all...the leaders you look for go where the action is, Combat Arms/MP etc....they do not go to Signal unless they are interested in CCNA, CCNP, NET+, CISSP, A+ etc to appear after their name, get out, and get bankrolled by some private entity...so really those guys are looking out for themselves not some 25Q that doesn't have a HCLOS to work on...Leadership is in short supply in the Signal world, it starts with the Officer Corps, infects the Senior NCO's and destroys the junior enlisted. Do this long enough, and the echelon you're at gets broken. If you find one worth a $%^t, hang on to them, follow them from post to post (if active) and tell all the Junior Officers to look at how that one does it....once the Officer Corps fixes their $%^t, we'll get to worry about the NCO's and from there the Junior Enlisted. Just my two cents...rant over.
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SGT Nodal Network Systems Operators/Maintainer
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I can speak for my last unit and assure you what you speak of is not the "standard" everywhere. I think it's like any organization, there is good and bad. I had a fantastic Platoon Sergeant who taught all of us just the fundamentals that you speak of. We even used those skills in FTXs as well as while we were deployed. It is the reason why the NCO is the backbone of the Army, because how we train our soldiers, is how they will train theirs. Leadership is the key to this problem.
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SGT(P) S6 Communications Nco
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Voice of the ROCK!!
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SSG(P) Instructor
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I will say that many NCOs do not know about or use the tools that have been given to them... such as ATN.. which breaks down a training plan and go/no go assessment sheets.. but instead of asking what's wrong? Let's ask what are we doing to fix it? I was taught to use these tools and pass the information along.. and most senior leaders know of these tools but never look at it. They just know it's there! Call over to Signal Towers and find our what is available for you troops such as LWNS and ATN and then actually set substantial amount of time to conduct crew drills on the training calendar. AATW!!
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CW5 Regimental Chief Warrant Officer
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Enter the JNN during 3ID deployment to Iraq. It was the first iteration and had a few bugs. IP telephony was new to the Army and not in AIT yet as this was not a program of record.
We go through more iterations culminating in Lot8/9. During that turbulence we had varying equipment models and configurations (layer 3 switch at the access case or not? How do we use the Content Engine? How to use Promina between JNNs on HCLOS over Serial?

During this era, you either got it or you didn't and we promoted people regardless as we had to fight a war while increasing the number of Brigades.
Enter WIN-T with TMs, a schoolhouse teaching material and experience at war. It got a bit better but the OPTEMPO and personnel turnover compounded with the lack of command emphasis on Signal training (in some/most units) due to the dissolution of the SIG BNs at the Divisions created a perfect storm.

Lets AAR as to how we succeeded in the mission: Some people stepped up and learned. Warrants, high speed NCOs and Soldiers and even some Officers get face time on the system and made it happen. Upper echelons published configurations, TTPs and provided in-theater equipment.

How we could have done better: Done more home station training. Convinced our leaders that we need time on our systems. Going to the field with the Brigade is not training for Signal as we are providing a service. The exception is when there is a published PACE plan that the Brigade can use to continue the fight when we are learning.

What you can do individually: Use http://www.signal-chief.com and check out the resources available on Milsuite, s6.army.mil and other collaboration sites.
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SSG Cnd Analyst
SSG (Join to see)
9 y
Or you can go back to basics with WIN-T and access LandWarNet school house, which has all the lessons and information regarding JNNs, TCNs and other technical materials.

https://lwn.army.mil/landing?p_p_id=58&p_p_lifecycle=0&_58_redirect=%2f
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CW5 Regimental Chief Warrant Officer
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9 y
LWN is awesome. You can make a custom page and have those in your team/squad have a list of required training. The team/squad leader can track the progress. The problem with it is that we Signaleers did a bad job getting the word out about it. Also most people don't bother with online training. We have a hard time even getting people to do their SSD to get promoted.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/12/23/7740-sergeants-could-be-cut-from-promotion-list-ssd2-promotion-requirement/20804823/
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SGM G6 Sgm
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8 y
Sir,

That is the WRONG way of thinking. Yes LWN and other online training assets are great foundation for initial training, but nothing prepares Soldiers like getting them out of the office and from behind a computer. They must put their hands on the system and realize that it will not always work like on the CBT. Sometimes Murphy has a say in how well the system functions. You have to prepare your Soldiers for that. Repetition of the basics: PCC/PCIs/load plans, set-up and proper tear down, normal PMCS and simple troubleshooting have fell by the way side. As a leader, you cannot lead and certify your Soldiers with a keyboard. Soldiers emulate what they see, so if their leader is never around, commands by email, or barks commands and never checks results... guess what you end up with?
Each divisions has at least 6,000 Soldiers that are fully eligible for promotion to the next grade (SGT or SSG), that have not been allowed to attend the promotion board. We as leaders must remember that we promote based on potential not soley on performance. The typical unit has too much red tape that prevents a Soldier from being boarded. You must have an valid APFT, weapons card, been in the unit 6 months, attend two Soldier of the month boards, score 270 on APFT, shoot expert, be a supervisor of at least one Soldier, complete two college course... the list goes on and on. All this crap discourages your potential future leaders.
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CW5 Regimental Chief Warrant Officer
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8 y
I feel you, SGM, but being a low density MOS in a BDE, DIV, etc. won't give you the horsepower to actually get the unit to the field.
We haven't been training Signal for over a decade. When the BDE goes to the field, Signal is the service provider and given very little latitude to train because as we know, if the warfighter can't communicate, they can't train (unless they actually use their PACE).
Sorry to sound negative about it but that's the raw truth of it. Since we have decided to rely upon SATCOM, it is hard to get Ad Hoc bandwidth to train on Signal Maintenance days (If you actually do them) and the knowledgebase to physically cable in systems instead is, well, deficient to say the least.

We need to get back into the concept of Switchex and then TOCEX. The challenge is to get the 'customer' to bring out and operate their systems. Without an OPORD from higher, no one wants to play.

CBTs at least is a starting point on exercising the Signal muscle at any time of day.
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SGM G6 Sgm
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Edited 8 y ago
SSG,

The change came about long before the introduction of WIN-T. It actually started with the Army's decision to dismantle Signal Battalions within Divisions in favor of the modularity of Unit of Action/Execution. These later became the Brigade Combat Teams we know today. As a result, the Signaleer's training focus was pushed to the back burner in favor of the maneuver unit commander's focus. This focus was usually centered on the certification of combat arms skills. Heck, you cannot fault them, that was their METL focus. With Signal Battalions, you had a Signal chain of command that had a METL focused around Signal proficiency, and all of their funds and focus were committed to achieving this task. I reminisce on the days of getting my site's LOS shots in in under 20 Minutes, and my 39D up and passing traffic in under 30. Whether we used Thursday's SGT Time or monthly team/PLT training, we trained to be the best at our craft. The thought of playing second fiddle to any other unit was just plain blasphemy. Our input in the training schedule aligned with the Brigade, Battalion and Company's METL so our training was never stepped on. The Army CIO/G6 has realized the mess caused by dismantling Signal Battalions and are currently comparing the effects of reintroducing a Signal Battalion or a larger G6/S6 back into the Division formations. one thing for certain, when the smoke clears and the testing ends, we must have a change in the BCT commander's focus. We must increase their understanding that Signal is one of his greatest weapon systems. Signal assets and personnel must be maintained and properly trained in order to be truly beneficial. Too often Commanders and XOs cringe at the thought of spending $50K on one circuit card, much less repairing an entire system. Our equipment cost big $$$$, and the battlefield is NOW digitized so BCS and MCS that give the commander that common operation picture and instant notification/visualization is a must have.

As an NCO, you must actively explore ways to train your Soldiers. No one knows their weaknesses better than you. We are working on reintroducing ARTEP standards for Signal MOSs, but until that comes into fruition, I need my NCOs to fight to protect their training and employ opportunity/hip pocket training to maximize Soldier proficiency.
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CW2 Cyber Network Defender
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My personal opinion is the reason for this loss of this knowledge comes from lack of proper mentorship. I have been in low optempo units and very high optempo units, and I can say in all honesty my leaders failed in the sense of mentoring the individuals trained to take their place. I have witness MSG slave driving their teams shops, or organizations to perform without taking the time to coach or teach what was expected from us. I watched them groom their 2ICs or ncos to be just like them thus growing more ncos that do not know how to mentor properly/effectively.

Many of my peers are severely lacking in general signal knowledge, and I.T certifications doesn't mean anything when you are deploying with our multitudes of different systems we deploy with.

Also our NCOES Schools are failing in teaching critical knowledge to our perspective cmfs as well in all areas. Like what happened to teaching hand receipt discipline? I just watched some of the most suspect transactions happen over handreciept transfers from ncos that just don't know what is required. Some didn't even know what a TM was?

If you are senior in your perspective signal mos take a couple of ncos and mentor them. Once you retire that information is gone, and that's how history repeats itself.

sorry I am just ranting at this point.
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LTC John Shaw
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SFC Steven Harvey My SOBC class was the last to learn Tri-TAC and RATT rigs the first to learn how to run Radio Access Units (RAUs) in MSE in 1990. This early familiarity with Cellular technology helped me land where I am today. The downside is when the commercial side advances the technology faster than the military, the military will convert to get the benefit of the newest technology.

Commercialization of the skills needed to run the SNAPs, conversion of military to civilian, customers and equipment with dependence on bandwidth and high-speed connections. It will take another crisis in a remote country with NO infrastructure for us to re-learn our lessons.

With so much to learn about the new technology, leadership is making choices. It is doubtful an E-4 today could do the same as what I expected, they are not trained in it. Most I see can barely make a Radio call or control a Tactical net.
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