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Posted on May 23, 2015
Should Three Officers Who Failed To Halt The Construction OF A New Command Center In Afghanistan Now Be Held Accountable?
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The U.S. Government's Afghanistan spending watchdog is recommending disciplinary measures for two Army Generals and a Colonel, alleging that they were derelict in not stopping the construction of a $36 million command center at Camp Leatherneck; a facility that was ultimately never used and most likely never will be for it's intended purpose of coordinating and directing U.S. combat operations in southwestern Afghanistan. What say you? Should Senior Officers be held liable for wasteful government spending on projects they have direct oversight for? Why or why not?
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 51
Sir-
Why stop with those 3? They weren't the people who managed the whole occupation. This is just pinning the tail on scapegoats. Prosecute them, prosecute all who made similar 'blunders'. If not, leave them alone.
Why stop with those 3? They weren't the people who managed the whole occupation. This is just pinning the tail on scapegoats. Prosecute them, prosecute all who made similar 'blunders'. If not, leave them alone.
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Having only two actual choices for this is wrong in my opinion. As military leaders we do not live in a world of absolutes. We live in the gray areas we are forced to make decisions with incomplete information.
Is this wrong, what we spent this money on? You're damn right. Should people be held accountable? Yes. Should we roast these three individuals over the coals for making the decisions that they did with incomplete information? No way.
Is this wrong, what we spent this money on? You're damn right. Should people be held accountable? Yes. Should we roast these three individuals over the coals for making the decisions that they did with incomplete information? No way.
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MAJ (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see), unfortunately, the system will not let me make the modifications to the survey options. Now I know better than to initiate a survey at the end of a long day when my brain is fried. Thanks for sharing though, the options you have listed will help promote a more healthy discussion here.
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LTC (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) Glad to help, and I appreciate having a frank and healthy discussion. I enjoy topics that make us think.
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SSG Melvin N.
I do not believe that any 3 has the pull to do as they are accused without a lot more behind them or hands at play. Yes or No is no way to answer with out all the facts laid out in front of us as well as the ability to understand all the red tap that will be thrown in to protect others that some may want protected. if you want to burn a few for the works of many, we all know how that game is played and its as wrong as the day it was first played.
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Where do we draw the line on wasting money in Afghanistan? The kind of Fraud Waste and Abuse I was exposed to by the Ministry Of Defense was likely way more then 36 million. The ANA have billions, yes billions of dollars worth of vehicles and equipment that they cannot maintain. They receive repair parts for no apparent reason. Once a vehicle is demolished they continue to leave it on their books so they can keep the fuel the authorization. The extra fuel that they have is soldi to the Taliban. They do not have the educational background to do so. These three officers are not the problem.I am sure their intentions were to build a building that can be used by both the coalition and Afghan forces.
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Why should we hold generals responsible when we don't hold congress responsible?
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LTC (Join to see)
Cpl Mark McMiller by that logic we should not hold anyone accountable for anything, because there are always those in power that are not held accountable.
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Cpl Mark McMiller
No. What I'm saying is that it would be an understatement to say that senators making statements like, "This is one of the most outrageous, deliberate and wasteful misuses of taxpayer dollars in Afghanistan we’ve ever seen,” is hypocritical. Congress constantly wastes astronomically larger sums for ridiculous reasons and answers to no one about it. So how do you justify holding service members accountable when the leaders of our country, who those service members answer to, are allowed to get away with the same behavior and on a much larger scale?
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With all the facts not present, Trying and Convicting them on a website is ludicrous. Once all the facts are presented in a court of law and those responsible are properly charged then yes if convictions are warranted then they should be fully prosecuted. But until then everyone is innocent until proven guilty.Â
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MAJ (Join to see)
SGT Michael DeLaGarza, who said anything about trying and convicting them on a website, SGT? I'm merely asking the question as to whether or not it is right to hold them liable for such decisions, given the complexities of budgeting and contracting.
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SGT Michael DeLaGarza
As you and I both know, decisions are made in Washington DC by each Committee, Senate and Congress and their minions. The Officers in the field are the scapegoats for the decisions and campaign promises made for the contributions made by major donors. The winning bidders are incapable of delivering a quality project in or outside THE USA. The officers are caught in the middle of the leadership changes in Washington and it is election time again. Thats the way it works in Washington.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SGT Michael DeLaGarza, no, the Officers in the field are in fact not scape goats, so long as they remain true to their Oaths of Office and do not succumb to the temptations of carrying the water for the political class. An Officer who remembers it is his duty to choose the hard right over the expedient wrong and does so consistently throughout his career should have no reservations about identifying that $36 million is about to be spent on a facility no U.S. Soldier or Marine will ever utilize. As COL Charles Williams so succinctly states in above post, a Senior Officer has an obligation to exercise due diligence and to be a prudent steward of Federal tax dollars. If they knew for a fact before this project was started that we would never utilize it, it was their obligation to speak up and make this known. Opting to simply keep quiet as the project moved ahead despite this knowledge is not an adequate defense strategy if this moves to an Article 32 Hearing or beyond.
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SGT Michael DeLaGarza
Officers are always scapegoats. No different than that of CEO's though someone else made the decision it was on their watch. Yes an Officer in charge has the duty to oversee but when they do complain they are replaced for insubordination or forced to retire.
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I've served at Leatherneck (running convoy's between Kandahar leatherneck and Dwyer) I saw this "Ark" as it was being constructed. I also served at Bagram in RC East in two different positions, logistic acquisition and fuel management. I've sat in on many JARBs, (Joint Acquisition Review Boards) FARBs (Flight line acquisition review boards?) and whatever other acronym based funding meetings could be dreamt up. Sometimes commanders had direct control of funds other times they did not. The bulk of the operational budget in Afghanistan when I was there was locked (Untouchable) the remainder (scraps) were fought over by Colonels and the occasional SFC. Just like fuel at one point I was responsible for 2/3 of the fuel (much of it being stolen) by the 700 contracted Afghani trucks operating loosely under 7 subcontracted companies I was in charge of. I pinpoint identified theft and withheld millions in payments to these companies due to their theft of fuel. After I left it was rumored they were paid anyway. I suppose I should be responsible for that right?
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MAJ (Join to see)
SFC Jeff Gurchinoff, if it were ever to come down to a nickel and dime shakedown inspection in some Congressional sub-committee trying to determine where all the money went, it sounds like you would be in the clear. It sounds like you did your due diligence and determined where your losses were occurring and acted accordingly. My BN S4 NCO in Iraq had three large 3-ring binders, chronologically organized, of all equipment transferred and purchased for the Iraqi Police Forces within the BN's AO for this very same purpose; spending and equipment transfers were so rampant, and the rules so fast and loose during the surge, he was convinced he would one day be talking to either Congress or 60 Minutes! He built a set of binders for the BC and the CSM as well. To this day, they can account for all BN transactions and transfers for the entire 15 month tour.
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SP5 Tom Carlson
sounds like sub-commitees are autonomous to other sub-committes and never tsalk to each othernot do they really report to the committee, so the problem you thought you had solved was handled by somebody, that reported to nobody, when anybody could have done the job, but you end up with a cluster------ like the V.A. Hospital in Denver area..
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I want more info. Who came up with this project in the first place? Who contracted it? When was the contract signed, and with what company(ies)? What was the completion date in the contract? Was the drawdown/pullout date for US troops in Afghanistan known at the time? Which politicians were involved in pushing this project? Why nail two generals and a colonel, when the project was probably pork for some congressman or senator?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Ron, repositioning this Washington Post story here for your review. What I want to know is, if the Marine Corps brass is on the record, repeatedly voicing that this facility was both unnecessary, too excessive, too wasteful, and ultimately too late in the game, who in the Hell chose to ignore them and proceed anyway? If it was ultimately these three Army Officers, then they should swing for it!
A brand-new U.S. military headquarters in Afghanistan. And nobody to use it.
The building was completed this year at a cost of $34million. But as the military draws down, it will sit empty.
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MAJ Ron Peery
Actually, the folks who came up with the idea, then ignored the Marine objections and contracted for it anyway, need to pay up. If it turns out to be the same gents who didn't stop the project ( an extremely difficult thing to do after the contract is already signed....I know from experience ) then so be it. I suggest we put all the GITMO prisoners in it and lock the doors before demolishing the structure. More bang for the buck.
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This is nothing new or an incident that only occurred in Afghanistan. When I was in Germany back around 2000, the consolidation of US Bases was in full swing. We had a DFAC that we hadn't even broken ground on paid for when we learned our post was being closed. I was told the money had already been appropriated and the contracts signed so it had to be built. We ended up closing the post a few months after the DFAC was finished. Maybe it was just poor judgement on those officers behalf to request a facility of that magnitude in a CZ, but I don't think they should be punished.
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MAJ (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see), projects in USAEUR are a little bit different. Due to our longstanding and strong alliance with Germany, many of the projects that were in the pipeline on facilities slated to be transferred back to the German Armed Forces were permitted to continue forward both as a gesture of good faith and partnership and with the understanding that if the strategic posture in Europe changed to the extent that an increase in U.S. Forces becomes necessary, the infrastructure to support such a contingency is already in place.
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This is realistic, not sarcastic: If they stopped the project, what would their OERs say?
I am surrounded by people all day everyday who live to be handed control of a project. It is the holy grail of the DA Civilian/DoD Contracting world. If you point out any flaws or concerns with their project, they will come after you hard core.
Money is life in America. If you threaten someone's livelihood by challenging the project that they think will earn them a promotion, raise, or next contract, you will find yourself on the outs. It is not as easy as just speaking up. There is really no reason to think that they didn't speak up or ask questions, but you know as well as I do, sometimes you get told to shut up and color. I think our leadership is more and more being comprised of people who are more willing to go with the flow than fight the system...but that's a different topic.
You cannot punish individuals for functioning within a desperately flawed system. That contract made civilians rich, not Soldiers. We shouldn't take the fall for it.
I am surrounded by people all day everyday who live to be handed control of a project. It is the holy grail of the DA Civilian/DoD Contracting world. If you point out any flaws or concerns with their project, they will come after you hard core.
Money is life in America. If you threaten someone's livelihood by challenging the project that they think will earn them a promotion, raise, or next contract, you will find yourself on the outs. It is not as easy as just speaking up. There is really no reason to think that they didn't speak up or ask questions, but you know as well as I do, sometimes you get told to shut up and color. I think our leadership is more and more being comprised of people who are more willing to go with the flow than fight the system...but that's a different topic.
You cannot punish individuals for functioning within a desperately flawed system. That contract made civilians rich, not Soldiers. We shouldn't take the fall for it.
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LTC Yinon Weiss
Just because there is a dysfunctional system, it doesn't mean leaders (Generals in this case), get a pass on their decision making. DA Civilians would be able to rationalize their own decision making here as well. Eventually Congress would rationalize their decision making as well. People can always rationalize bad decisions if they want to. That sort of complacency perpetuates the problems.
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir,
I go back to my statement that people are assuming that they didn't speak up or ask questions. Should they have somehow quit? That's completely not on the table. People have the mistaken belief that because someone is a General Officer, they are all powerful. Really? Ask GEN McCrystal. I have close friends who are General Officers and privately they complain about the same stuff the rest of us officers do: incompetent leaders to their periphery, out-of-touch higher ups, and a disbelief about the kinds of petty things they get dragged into that they thought they wouldn't have to deal with at their rank.
In any event, sir, we all get dragged into stuff when we know it's not a good idea. The fact that it happens is not the slightest indication that no one spoke up in opposition. Lots of people do. That's why I save all the emails so I can have my "I told you so" moment.
I go back to my statement that people are assuming that they didn't speak up or ask questions. Should they have somehow quit? That's completely not on the table. People have the mistaken belief that because someone is a General Officer, they are all powerful. Really? Ask GEN McCrystal. I have close friends who are General Officers and privately they complain about the same stuff the rest of us officers do: incompetent leaders to their periphery, out-of-touch higher ups, and a disbelief about the kinds of petty things they get dragged into that they thought they wouldn't have to deal with at their rank.
In any event, sir, we all get dragged into stuff when we know it's not a good idea. The fact that it happens is not the slightest indication that no one spoke up in opposition. Lots of people do. That's why I save all the emails so I can have my "I told you so" moment.
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That depends. This about the harder right over the easier wrong. Lying can be an act or an omission. I say yes, solely based on the information I have seen, which is what the media wants us to see.
While complex SGT David Thomas MAJ (Join to see) Leaders, especially senior officers, have a duty to provide due diligence, and to be good stewards of US tax dollars. If they in fact knew, we would never use it, and it would be a waste of US tax dollars, then they should have made that known. I don't buy keeping quieting was the best option.
While complex SGT David Thomas MAJ (Join to see) Leaders, especially senior officers, have a duty to provide due diligence, and to be good stewards of US tax dollars. If they in fact knew, we would never use it, and it would be a waste of US tax dollars, then they should have made that known. I don't buy keeping quieting was the best option.
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MAJ (Join to see)
COL Charles Williams, precisely Sir. Based upon the other stories I have caught on this, that is the crux of the accusation.
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Capt (Join to see)
Ah, but a good officer makes it known but does not broadcast it. If those above them said nothing or continue the march then it would be their job to do so.
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