Posted on Mar 17, 2023
Should the U.S. supply F-16 Fighter Aircraft to Ukraine?
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There are all sorts of facets that the answers may take: 1. Will this give the Ukrainians the ability to protect and stabilize their nation? 2. Is there too much risk of drawing us into the escalated war? 3. Would this convince the Russians that it is getting too costly for them? 4. Would the Ukrainians be better served with Eastern-Bloc aircraft, because some instruments (like the artificial horizon) actually read the opposite of western aircraft. 5. Is there too much risk that the Ukrainians may use the aircraft to strike inside of Russia, causing an uncontrolled escalation?
...and you may find other paths to go down.
Anyway, all opinions are welcome, but I am especially interested in the expertise of aircrews, intelligence operators, and folks who are familiar with Eastern European thought.
...and you may find other paths to go down.
Anyway, all opinions are welcome, but I am especially interested in the expertise of aircrews, intelligence operators, and folks who are familiar with Eastern European thought.
Posted in these groups: 
F-16 Pilot
IS: Intelligence Specialist
Foreign Policy
Foreign ForcesRusso-Ukrainian War
F-16 Pilot IS: Intelligence Specialist Foreign Policy Foreign ForcesRusso-Ukrainian War
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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Russia will do as it pleases, that's what is scaring the crap out of NATO!. If Ukraine loses, then Bear will mess with another European nation. Then instead of supply equipment we will be supplying bodies!
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
This Was A GIFT From A Defecting Russian Pilot,
Whom Gave It In Exchange For Asylum.
We BOTH Made A Good Deal,
So Now Let's Pay Them Back By Using It
To Dropping A Few Dimes Over Them..
Whom Gave It In Exchange For Asylum.
We BOTH Made A Good Deal,
So Now Let's Pay Them Back By Using It
To Dropping A Few Dimes Over Them..
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From a different conversation ... but applicable.
I'm with Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen on this one. They haven't trained on them and have to learn them. I'll defer to him (being an Air Force pilot) about the difficulty of learning a new airframe (sure, the overall concept of flight mechanics stay the same, but just learning where the button to do something and memorizing it is going to take a while).
Additionally, the days of air-to-air combat being 'visual' are far past regardless of what the Top Gun movies are showing. Sure, there's an occasional story here and there, but the primary means of engagement will be via radar, IFF and other technologies that could care less what you "look like".
F-16s MAY be in the future ... after the pilots that Ukraine sent to the US are trained in flight and sent back. Maybe Ukraine will send another 'class' to be taught to expand them, but these are future problems, not 'right now' problems.
According to Luke Air Force Base*, the F-16 course (called the Basic Course, or B-Course) is nine months long (assuming you're training someone who has finished basic). I can forsee the training being a bit more difficult unless the Ukrainian pilots are fluent in English or the instructors are fluent in Ukrainian.
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* https://www.luke.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/358711/train-f-16-pilots-lukes-mission/
https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/poland-to-send-four-mig-29-jet-fighters-to-ukraine?urlhash=8183171
I'm with Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen on this one. They haven't trained on them and have to learn them. I'll defer to him (being an Air Force pilot) about the difficulty of learning a new airframe (sure, the overall concept of flight mechanics stay the same, but just learning where the button to do something and memorizing it is going to take a while).
Additionally, the days of air-to-air combat being 'visual' are far past regardless of what the Top Gun movies are showing. Sure, there's an occasional story here and there, but the primary means of engagement will be via radar, IFF and other technologies that could care less what you "look like".
F-16s MAY be in the future ... after the pilots that Ukraine sent to the US are trained in flight and sent back. Maybe Ukraine will send another 'class' to be taught to expand them, but these are future problems, not 'right now' problems.
According to Luke Air Force Base*, the F-16 course (called the Basic Course, or B-Course) is nine months long (assuming you're training someone who has finished basic). I can forsee the training being a bit more difficult unless the Ukrainian pilots are fluent in English or the instructors are fluent in Ukrainian.
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* https://www.luke.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/358711/train-f-16-pilots-lukes-mission/
https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/poland-to-send-four-mig-29-jet-fighters-to-ukraine?urlhash=8183171
Train F-16 pilots – Luke’s mission
Click to find out more!
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CPT Lawrence Cable
The other issue that no one likes to talk about is that in the present conflict, neither side have been able to secure air superiority. That brings up two issues of concern for both the Air Force and the Army. In near peer conflicts, has the development of Anti Aircraft Technology made the air space over a conflict zone a death zone for pilots and aircraft, and if that's the case, how do we replace CAS and battlefield interdiction in our maneuver doctrine? The Russians seem to be replacing deep strikes by aircraft with cruise, standard and hypersonic missiles and drones, which works, but not as accurately as eyes on the target, and replaced CAS with Missile and Artillery. I think that puts us back to WWI tactics.
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MSG Lonnie Averkamp
CPT Lawrence Cable - Good points. The skies over Ukraine appear to be deadly for all aircraft, and this seems to be evident from the in-cockpit videos shown from fixed wing and rotary wing strikes by the Ukrainians. It appears that they come in "low & hot", do a "hop & pop", dump their ordinance, and then take evasive maneuvers to return to base. Almost the concept of using aircraft as artillery, like the Stuka's in the 1930's and 1940's - - however, these are popping in from below, rather than above.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
MSG Lonnie Averkamp - The fact seems to be that the Russians have switched to exactly that flying artillery, much like the gunships in Vietnam, but with more standoff distance. Once again Artillery is the King of Battle and 75% of the casualties are from standard or missile artillery bombardments. The equation now is that the Russians have a lot more of it and the West has stripped it's stockpiles.
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IMHO, Russia has needed a good ass-whuppin since the beginning of the Iron Curtain crap. The USSR went away in name only. The bear has not changed one little bit.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
And While Our Government "Look's The Other Way",
It's CHINA Who's Buying This Country, Obviously It's For Sale:
Here Are Just A Few We May Have THOUGHT To Be American Company's.
But They're Chinese Owned...
AMC ~ Smithfield Foods ~ GE Appliances ~ The Waldorf Astoria ~ Riot Games ~
Ingram Micro ~ Motorola Mobility...
And The List Is Almost Endless ~~ China's Buying America
.
It's CHINA Who's Buying This Country, Obviously It's For Sale:
Here Are Just A Few We May Have THOUGHT To Be American Company's.
But They're Chinese Owned...
AMC ~ Smithfield Foods ~ GE Appliances ~ The Waldorf Astoria ~ Riot Games ~
Ingram Micro ~ Motorola Mobility...
And The List Is Almost Endless ~~ China's Buying America
.
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