Posted on Dec 3, 2014
No indictment for NY Cop choke hold death. Right call? More riots?
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Will we see the National Guard deployed in NY City now?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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Police Grandchildren
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 60
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I heard an NPR report on this incident. The medical examiner officially called Garner's death a homicide, and the grand jury called it justified, even though that choke hold was not allowed.
I don't know ... I think this was the wrong call.
I found an interesting article about this incident:
http://theweek.com/article/index/273041/why-eric-garners-death-should-disturb-everyone
I don't know ... I think this was the wrong call.
I found an interesting article about this incident:
http://theweek.com/article/index/273041/why-eric-garners-death-should-disturb-everyone
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CW5 (Join to see)
Amen, Boots. I just heard a police leader on the news saying that Garner was resisting arrest and that's a crime. The video I saw doesn't really show that. It shows one cop choking him while other officers subdued him.
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SFC Boots Attaway
I agree with you Monty, and as this was over Garner selling A cigarette the officer should have indicted for involuntary manslaughter. Like Rand Paul said "When you can get arrested for selling one cigarette then the laws are too strict".
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I really don't know, but I can't second-guess a grand jury. It isn't as if a Prosecutor just didn't proceed with charges. What's the alternative to the grand jury system.
My problem with some of the protesters is that they seem outraged that a black was killed by a non-minority. Are these deaths more meaningful that the many other deaths of blacks that happen every day? What about other minorities? For the families and those directly involved, I get it. But for the others, what are you really mad at? The death of minorities? Or police action that you deem inappropriate, though you really don't know how you would respond in a similar situation, right? You want the protection, but you want to be protected "perfectly". Easier said then done.
My problem with some of the protesters is that they seem outraged that a black was killed by a non-minority. Are these deaths more meaningful that the many other deaths of blacks that happen every day? What about other minorities? For the families and those directly involved, I get it. But for the others, what are you really mad at? The death of minorities? Or police action that you deem inappropriate, though you really don't know how you would respond in a similar situation, right? You want the protection, but you want to be protected "perfectly". Easier said then done.
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In spite of the "video" I've always said the cop was put in a no-win situation. You (the cop) are making an arrest - the arrestee resists - you got a choice: you let the arrestee go free or you bring them down. What I saw in the "video" was someone who continued to resist up until they passed out. Sometimes people's actions end up on the negative end of the scale. Sadly his family, suffering a loss like this will never find an answer that fully satisfies, no matter how the jury decided. Anyone who has lost a buddy in combat, to a training accident or an incident while in operational status knows the feeling of loss, the constant questions and second-guessing that goes with being a survivor.
No matter which side of the decision tree one is on - one cannot help but feel the deepest sadness for the family and his mother on her loss. No parent should bury their child.
No matter which side of the decision tree one is on - one cannot help but feel the deepest sadness for the family and his mother on her loss. No parent should bury their child.
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I think about it like this. If he had done the same move to the cop, it'd be called a choke hold and he'd be charged with attempted murder. No doubt about it.
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I'm not going to answer on the call. I think it's a mistake to second guess the grand jury.
Is there a different standard of justice based on color? Sure. We see it, both here and in Ferguson, where certain people think that they are allowed to break the law, or at least argue/fight with the police, presumably based on race.
And lets not forget that the best way to memorialize a young "victim" of police violence is to steal 50 pairs of Nike shoes from a store and burn it to the ground.
Black lives DO count. Every life counts. But if your life counts so little to YOU that you are willing to risk it solely so you can argue with or punch a police officer, that's YOUR choice. I don't see why I should care about your life more than you do.
Is there a different standard of justice based on color? Sure. We see it, both here and in Ferguson, where certain people think that they are allowed to break the law, or at least argue/fight with the police, presumably based on race.
And lets not forget that the best way to memorialize a young "victim" of police violence is to steal 50 pairs of Nike shoes from a store and burn it to the ground.
Black lives DO count. Every life counts. But if your life counts so little to YOU that you are willing to risk it solely so you can argue with or punch a police officer, that's YOUR choice. I don't see why I should care about your life more than you do.
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CMSgt James Nolan
SGM (Join to see) Excellent comment.
I think, seriously, that many people feel that Innocent Until Proven Guilty means just that. "You cannot arrest me, I am innocent". That is what the courts are for. Take your day in court and win if innocent. It is tragic that Garner died. Had he complied, he would have had his day in court.
Until you have worked the street and tried to arrest people who could give a flip less about hurting you, you could not possibly understand how difficult a job being the police is. At the end of the day, the police will always escalate their force based upon the amount of resistance met. We could second guess their actions all day "I would have used a Taser", "I would have buckled his knees" (imagine the press if the police walked up and kicked him to drop him to the ground), "I would have used an arm bar" "I would have......." Many, Many times, officers are killed affecting trivial arrests. Does that justify excessive force? No. In this case, it appears that the officer was attempting to control a very large man by controlling the neck. The result was that a chain of events happened in his body that resulted in death. Tragic. No way the officers could have known about his medical history. What we as "viewers of the video" have no clue about is A-what was said and B-what the whole event was. For all I know, he said he was never being taken alive.......I will not condemn the actions of those officers, because I do not have the facts. The only thing that I know for certain is that they were attempting to arrest a man and that man resisted, and ultimately died, and it was tragic.
I think, seriously, that many people feel that Innocent Until Proven Guilty means just that. "You cannot arrest me, I am innocent". That is what the courts are for. Take your day in court and win if innocent. It is tragic that Garner died. Had he complied, he would have had his day in court.
Until you have worked the street and tried to arrest people who could give a flip less about hurting you, you could not possibly understand how difficult a job being the police is. At the end of the day, the police will always escalate their force based upon the amount of resistance met. We could second guess their actions all day "I would have used a Taser", "I would have buckled his knees" (imagine the press if the police walked up and kicked him to drop him to the ground), "I would have used an arm bar" "I would have......." Many, Many times, officers are killed affecting trivial arrests. Does that justify excessive force? No. In this case, it appears that the officer was attempting to control a very large man by controlling the neck. The result was that a chain of events happened in his body that resulted in death. Tragic. No way the officers could have known about his medical history. What we as "viewers of the video" have no clue about is A-what was said and B-what the whole event was. For all I know, he said he was never being taken alive.......I will not condemn the actions of those officers, because I do not have the facts. The only thing that I know for certain is that they were attempting to arrest a man and that man resisted, and ultimately died, and it was tragic.
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SGM (Join to see)
1stSgt James Nolan, although I agree with almost everything you said, I don't think you have to have worked the street to understand the difficulty of the job. If you are a policeman and you ask someone to obey the law and they say "NO", then what do you do? You cannot just walk away, not if the law means anything to you. So you escalate to, "You are under arrest."
If the nutcase (used advisedly, and I'll prove why) wants to argue some more, you clearly are dealing with someone whose own life is less important to them than, "standing up to the man" or whatever goofy reason they have for JUST ASKING for an ass whupping. Go back to the video. You don't see but one or two cops until the wrestling match goes down, then there are 7 in the picture. So unless they beamed down from the Starship Enterprise, they were standing right there for the nutcase to see. So the nutcase apparently thinks the other 6 are standing around doing a critique of the arresting officer's procedure, not getting ready to give him a first class ass whupping. (There's the proof I promised. Is it REALLY worth risking the only life you have to stand up to the man, represented by 7 police officers?)
Once again, you cannot walk away. But now you know that this nutcase thinks his life isn't worth much, and probably thinks the same thing about your life. So you get your buddies and pile on. After all, unless he's the Hulk, he's not going to pull a knife and stab you, or worse, a gun, when 7 guys are sitting on him.
Anyone who reads the above ought to understand that the police want to get out of this with the least amount of damage possible to everyone, but let's face it, the life I most care about is my own. If the nutcase cared about his own life as much as I care about mine, he's have backed down from the beginning, rather than demanding an ass whupping, or worse.
Let me make this ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, CRYSTAL CLEAR for everyone who might read this. Unless you want to be under seven police officers, gasping, "I can't breathe", when an officer tells you something, pay attention, take his badge number if you want, have a friend videotape, or whatever, but swallow your pride and COOPERATE. If your pride is worth more than your life, then don't whine to me when you lose them both.
If the nutcase (used advisedly, and I'll prove why) wants to argue some more, you clearly are dealing with someone whose own life is less important to them than, "standing up to the man" or whatever goofy reason they have for JUST ASKING for an ass whupping. Go back to the video. You don't see but one or two cops until the wrestling match goes down, then there are 7 in the picture. So unless they beamed down from the Starship Enterprise, they were standing right there for the nutcase to see. So the nutcase apparently thinks the other 6 are standing around doing a critique of the arresting officer's procedure, not getting ready to give him a first class ass whupping. (There's the proof I promised. Is it REALLY worth risking the only life you have to stand up to the man, represented by 7 police officers?)
Once again, you cannot walk away. But now you know that this nutcase thinks his life isn't worth much, and probably thinks the same thing about your life. So you get your buddies and pile on. After all, unless he's the Hulk, he's not going to pull a knife and stab you, or worse, a gun, when 7 guys are sitting on him.
Anyone who reads the above ought to understand that the police want to get out of this with the least amount of damage possible to everyone, but let's face it, the life I most care about is my own. If the nutcase cared about his own life as much as I care about mine, he's have backed down from the beginning, rather than demanding an ass whupping, or worse.
Let me make this ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, CRYSTAL CLEAR for everyone who might read this. Unless you want to be under seven police officers, gasping, "I can't breathe", when an officer tells you something, pay attention, take his badge number if you want, have a friend videotape, or whatever, but swallow your pride and COOPERATE. If your pride is worth more than your life, then don't whine to me when you lose them both.
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CMSgt James Nolan
SGM (Join to see) Agreed, I was not arguing with you. I do though think that while people may be able to somewhat have an idea of what policing is like, unless you have done it, ( and for example had a 10 year old, holding a knife, threatening to stab you for arresting his momma, or had someone crank off rounds at you, simply for wearing a badge) you cannot fully understand it.
Additionally, you are correct-the most important piece of flesh on scene is "this guys".
99.99999% of police want nothing to do with violence, but 100% of police completely understand that they may encounter violence at any time.
100% of police also understand that just because somebody does not want to be arrested, does not mean that they just walk away....
Additionally, you are correct-the most important piece of flesh on scene is "this guys".
99.99999% of police want nothing to do with violence, but 100% of police completely understand that they may encounter violence at any time.
100% of police also understand that just because somebody does not want to be arrested, does not mean that they just walk away....
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SGM (Join to see)
1stSgt James Nolan, I wasn't correcting you either; just expanding on what you said. Nutcases are incapable of understanding the difficulty of working the streets. That's why I clarified for the nutcases - it's your ONLY life. Choose wisely where you want to risk it.
Could you sell me a clue on how you got my name in bold? I want you to get credit for my mentioning your name, but it never bolds for me.
Could you sell me a clue on how you got my name in bold? I want you to get credit for my mentioning your name, but it never bolds for me.
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I am curious to hear the rational of the Grand Jury. While I don't think this is a murder case, I do think that if you use a procedure that is forbidden by policy, then you are being negligent.
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MSG (Join to see)
There is a procedure, referred to as a "seat belt" restraint, which is what is claimed was used, which is allowed. I'm not familiar with the differences, but it seems the jury either decided that it was the allowed move, or that they were unable to determine that it was the forbidden one.
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LTC (Join to see)
But is negligent "criminal"? No one was asking for the police officer to be reprimanded. The outcry was that another police officer "got away with murder", right? The protests weren't for internal affairs to find fault or not, they demanded "justice". Now we have the federal government scrutinizing these cases for potential civil-rights abuses. Did anyone see that on the video? In Ferguson? Remember that the grand jury is given on the evidence presented by the accuser (in this case the state), without defense or rebuttal. Either the prosecutor was the worst (wouldn't be the first time) or the evidence didn't overcome the high bar to prosecute a law-enforcement official in action -- not to convict mind you, but not enough to prosecute. But we'll protest anyway.
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Here is another good thread going on about this issue.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/is-a-second-ferguson-coming-in-nyc-indictment-coming-soon-for-nyc-chokehold-death
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/is-a-second-ferguson-coming-in-nyc-indictment-coming-soon-for-nyc-chokehold-death
Is a second Ferguson coming in NYC? Indictment coming soon for NYC chokehold death | RallyPoint
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/3/new-york-preparesforunrestasgrandjurymullschokeholddeath.html Are we going to see a second round of protests and violence?
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This was the wrong call and is definitely a case of the officer going to far. Although I do not believe the officer meant to kill him. That being said the suspect should never be as abrasive and belligerent as this man was. Okay so you have been wronged in your mind and you don't like the police and are pissed. At least cooperate, obey the commands and don't give reason to suspect you will be combative. And maybe these incidents will be averted.
I don't like in the report the idea that this incident and Furguson are similar. Yes both men where suspected of committing a crime but this gentlemen did not assault any one and did not attack the officer with the intent of inflicting harm. Two completely different mind sets.
I don't like in the report the idea that this incident and Furguson are similar. Yes both men where suspected of committing a crime but this gentlemen did not assault any one and did not attack the officer with the intent of inflicting harm. Two completely different mind sets.
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NY cops don't mess around. Anyone trying to burn up their town is going to find themselves in a world of hurt. Trust me....I watch "Blue Bloods" on tv.
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