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CPO Gregory Smith Excellent question. I would say no, for certain instances. It is capability we need to have in our kit bag. It is essential for special operations, in the HALO (This happens daily) mode for getting to places quietly... I believe for the Army, in a traditional static line sense, we need to maintain several BCT (Brigade Combat Teams) on jump status, and the Ranger Regiment and Battalions for those times when we may need to do a force entry. We need that capability. We don't need what we had before 911, where all of Fort Bragg was on jump status... Not just the Brigades of 82nd, but all the helicopter pilots (?), MP Brigade, Engineer Brigade, and the Support Command... I always thought that was redunk... and often argued with people about why do we need helicopter pilots, fuel handlers, the MP Brigade Commander (Colonel) on jump status, or the 3 Star 18th Airborne Corps Commander and Staff.... are they really jumping in on an initial forced entry operation?
All we need is the Airborne Brigade Combat Team(s), and its habitual support slices. That is where we are now. The 82nd grew a Brigade after 911, which is going away, so there will be 3 Brigades at Bragg. The Ranger Regiment, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalion, are Special Operations Command and have a different focus. We have a an Airborne BCT in Alaska, Hawaii, and Italy. Do we need the remaining? Yes, but the size of the Army will dictate how many we can afford. The 101st Airborne Division is not an Airborne unit anymore.
During Operation Just cause, Army Colonels were trying to bump PFCs off of birds, so they could get a combat jump... The 82nd MP Company jumped in... and then tried to borrow trucks (1025 HMMWVs) from the MP units on the ground... MPs are not very useful on the battle field without the trucks, weapons platforms, or radios... Silliness.
Great question.
All we need is the Airborne Brigade Combat Team(s), and its habitual support slices. That is where we are now. The 82nd grew a Brigade after 911, which is going away, so there will be 3 Brigades at Bragg. The Ranger Regiment, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalion, are Special Operations Command and have a different focus. We have a an Airborne BCT in Alaska, Hawaii, and Italy. Do we need the remaining? Yes, but the size of the Army will dictate how many we can afford. The 101st Airborne Division is not an Airborne unit anymore.
During Operation Just cause, Army Colonels were trying to bump PFCs off of birds, so they could get a combat jump... The 82nd MP Company jumped in... and then tried to borrow trucks (1025 HMMWVs) from the MP units on the ground... MPs are not very useful on the battle field without the trucks, weapons platforms, or radios... Silliness.
Great question.
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CPT Dave Brest
I agree wholeheartedly. Although we hate to “lose” the storied history of divisions like 82 and 101 , the flexibility of the BCT of the 173rd are more practical. They can add or subtract assets as required . In addition, there remains the need for the special operations units mentioned about.
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CPT Jan Milles
You already lost the 11th in the sixties served in Munich-with her until we became 24th. Div Met up with her one more time on Sandhill at Benning, only to see her turn into 11th Air Assault Div and later into 1st Cav Div.
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The Airborne will always be a decisive factor in a battle. It does not matter if we jump, walk or are brought in by helicopter. The light Infantry tactics are always necessary. Being Airborne, while just a method of being inserted into an area, is also a mindset, that those NAPs (Non-Airborne Personnel) will never know!
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SFC (Join to see)
The necessity of light infantry tactics isn’t as much of an argument for airborne units as much as it is for light infantry units.
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SGT (Join to see)
You don’t need airborne to be light infantry or have good leadership.... I’ve seen this quote before and it’s still retarded.
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PFC Gerald Bailey
I was artillery when I was in. I have also have done quite a bit of reading myself on this. The Airborne units have a light infantry mindset that can actually turn the tide of a battle to our advantage. Yes. Definitely keep some airborne units.
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1SG Gene Roddy
The idea behind this "retarded" quote, and why we should maintain Airborne insertions as a capability isn't simply the "light infantry mindset", but the ability to take that light infantry element and put them exactly where we want them in a denied/hostile area where a rotary wing insertion isn't feasible. Light infantry mindset, leadership and tactics aren't worth a whole lot when your force is having to truck (or walk) miles in just to get to the operating area and "happily go about the day's work". Getting them there is indeed more than half the battle, and why the capability should be kept in the tool kit.
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Small inserts - yes.
Large inserts - probably not.
Again .. it's not just the Airborne .. it's the Airborne Trooper that's the dangerous part.
Large inserts - probably not.
Again .. it's not just the Airborne .. it's the Airborne Trooper that's the dangerous part.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad - There is a joke that Marines and Paratroopers have one thing in common ... they both want to be Paratroopers :)
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- Short answer: No, the airborne concept is not outdated. Just because it has not been used in the past 14 years is not any indicator that it will never be used again.
- Long answer: To determine if the airborne concept is outdated, I recommend looking at the following information and criteria:
- History. History is deep with examples of things or ideas that were premature or considered to be outdated only to be brought back. The Army transitioned from horses to gas driven engines in the 1930s only to have SF mounted on horseback to attack the Taliban in 2001, WWI was "the war to end all wars" in 1918 only to have WWII in 1939, strategic bombing was ineffective in WWII only to have it as the primary option in Czechoslovakia in 1996. The lesson here is to never say never but to adapt old concepts to new and emerging conditions. Adapt it but don't throw it out.
- Doctrine. Joint doctrine includes JP 3-02 Amphibous Operations, JP 3-09 Joint Fire Support, JP 3-09.3 Close Air Support, and JP 3-18 Forcible Entry Operations. Army airborne doctrine is in FM 90-26 Airborne Operations. Also, US military doctrine is to fight joint combined arms.
- Theory. The Army is now looking towards the Army Operating Concept. Look at TRADOC Pamphlet 525-3-1 and what this concept articulates for globally integrated operations, the operational environment, and the various elements, tenets, operational art, and development of the Future Force.
- Other means of fighting. If the airborne concept is outdated since it has not been used in the past 14 years then can not the same question be asked of the air assault concept? The amphibious concept?
- Operational Environment. My numbers are from memory and are a bit off but there are 6+ billion humans on planet Earth, about 90% of this number live within 50 miles of a sea shore and most live within an urban environment. Plus part of the purpose of an airborne capability is to have a forced entry capability. We can not rely in the future on having a country like Kuwait from which to conduct RSOI operations. We need the strategic capability to create the conditions to conduct RSOI and follow on military operations.
- Therefore, the airborne concpet may not have been used recently but it by no means is outdated.
- Long answer: To determine if the airborne concept is outdated, I recommend looking at the following information and criteria:
- History. History is deep with examples of things or ideas that were premature or considered to be outdated only to be brought back. The Army transitioned from horses to gas driven engines in the 1930s only to have SF mounted on horseback to attack the Taliban in 2001, WWI was "the war to end all wars" in 1918 only to have WWII in 1939, strategic bombing was ineffective in WWII only to have it as the primary option in Czechoslovakia in 1996. The lesson here is to never say never but to adapt old concepts to new and emerging conditions. Adapt it but don't throw it out.
- Doctrine. Joint doctrine includes JP 3-02 Amphibous Operations, JP 3-09 Joint Fire Support, JP 3-09.3 Close Air Support, and JP 3-18 Forcible Entry Operations. Army airborne doctrine is in FM 90-26 Airborne Operations. Also, US military doctrine is to fight joint combined arms.
- Theory. The Army is now looking towards the Army Operating Concept. Look at TRADOC Pamphlet 525-3-1 and what this concept articulates for globally integrated operations, the operational environment, and the various elements, tenets, operational art, and development of the Future Force.
- Other means of fighting. If the airborne concept is outdated since it has not been used in the past 14 years then can not the same question be asked of the air assault concept? The amphibious concept?
- Operational Environment. My numbers are from memory and are a bit off but there are 6+ billion humans on planet Earth, about 90% of this number live within 50 miles of a sea shore and most live within an urban environment. Plus part of the purpose of an airborne capability is to have a forced entry capability. We can not rely in the future on having a country like Kuwait from which to conduct RSOI operations. We need the strategic capability to create the conditions to conduct RSOI and follow on military operations.
- Therefore, the airborne concpet may not have been used recently but it by no means is outdated.
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As long as the USA needs a forcible entry capability the Airborne will be necessary. There are plenty of places in the world where we won't be able to charge divisions of tanks towards an objective. The Airborne capability is another valuable tool at our leadership's disposal. Better to have it than not.
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COL (Join to see)
You're ability to make general statements about me are astounding. I like you. Bottom line is if the Cavalry isn't necessary, if reconnaissance doesn't need to be in the arena of the Armor branch, then get rid of it. You think too much about a hat in a picture.
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SSG Robert Webster
COL (Join to see) - Actually I looked at your stated Branch and then I checked your profile to see that you were branched Armor upon receiving your commission. The hat really has nothing to do with it. Though I would state that the Stetson is better headgear than a beret, no matter what the circumstances. Though due to the fact that both are made from felt or felt like materials, they both can be as hot as the proverbial brain bucket.
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COL (Join to see)
I prefer a hat I can put on with one hand. A "crew-served" hat is a no go. But...I'll never get the chance to wear a Stetson again, so I'll do my best to shape my beret into something akin to it. But again...if the Army doesn't need cavalry units, I'm not wedded to them. Best to have what you need than what you think you might need. The trick is trying to figure that out without leveraging what you have for what the next fight might need. If we can afford to keep the airborne, keep it. We might need it. If we can't...get rid of it. Same goes for the cavalry. There needs to be future requirements to drive the need however. What if's don't cut it too deep for me. Nostalgia and chest thumping definitely don't cut it...on either side of the fence.
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MAJ(P) (Join to see)
COL (Join to see) - Sir, without a specific scenario to war game, discussion of specific employment is moot. You make great points, but we could go back and forth for the next decade doing that. I don't know what all requirements for the next 5 wars will have as far as capabilities. Neither do you. My argument is that our airborne forces provide a capability that is unique and in my opinion valuable for many purposes besides simply seizing airfields and other key terrain. It has its limits like every capability the Army and DOD as a whole bring to the table. I agree, it can't be off the table for cuts in size as the military adjusts, but I would vehemently disagree the capability should be cut altogether.
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CPO Gregory Smith No it is not. AIRBORNE Insertion is the only true "Forced Entry" capability in the US Military. I spent 15 years in the 82d AIRBORNE and can atest to the "Wheels Up in 18 Hours to anyplace in the World" that has been the Motto of the 82d for decades. A Naval task force can be tracked for days fo AMTRACKS and Landing Craft might be outdated, but to fill the air with parachutes and to be able to put 30 thousand pissed off highly trained gun fighters in one place at one time....NO ONE ELSE in the world can do that.
AIRBORNE...ALL THE WAY!
AIRBORNE...ALL THE WAY!
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This has been a debate for quite some time and has resulted in the deactivation of multiple airborne units. While it might not be used in combat, its is better for us to have the capability and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
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SGT Timothy Rocheleau
But in this case SGT Wiley is absolutely correct in her statement. To fall back on the "we haven't used it in current operations therefore it is no longer needed" mindset is faulty logic. As with the "what have you done for me lately" mindset, it's faulty logic to think because not many people have seen or heard of actions means actions have not occurred.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
PFC Elijah Rose - Choppers do not have the range or Forced Entry Capability of an Airborne Brigade Combat Team in C-17s under your radar and then you got no radar...or Airport....or half your Army.
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To answer the first question -- no, the airborne concept is not outdated. To the second question, the short answer is yes. SSG Robert Webster has listed three instances of successful airborne assaults; but many discount larger operations as unnecessary because they do not delineate or know the difference between airborne assaults and airborne operations. Assaults are precise and efficient and the Special Operations Forces/Rangers have used them very effectively over the years. Simply stated, an operation simply is a way to deliver the force more efficiently. This often depends on a marked or secure drop zone, and the force’s primary task will usually to build up the airhead as a way to air-land even more follow on forces. Used when ground lines of communication are not established well enough, a great example of this capability would be the airborne operation into Northern Iraq by the 173rd in 2003. It would have taken weeks to air-land the force and then transport them to that airfield; establishing a ground LOC from the south would have taken resources that were not readily available. Just for the ground forces with minimal equipment, it takes at least 3-5 days to air-land a BCT; it takes a few hours to air drop them. It is a capability that has served us well, is also a great deterrent for forcible entry and one we should absolutely maintain.
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SSG Robert Webster
LTC Griggs, Thank you for the compliment. LTC Griggs has stated exactly what I was alluding to. It also illustrates why we have pre-positioned equipment stockpiles, both on land and at sea.
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LTC (Join to see)
Sorry, Maj Richard "Ernie" Rowlette, it wouldn’t work like that. There is nowhere for 15 C17s to go there at one time, there or most smaller airfields. Most all airfields only have the capacity to land, off-load, refuel and takeoff, a few aircraft at a time. Lack of sufficient heavy equipment to off-load supplies, lack of fuel capacity, lack of storage space all contribute to the delay of landing a force in a short period of time.
The 82nd plans and executes these drops every year – have been for many years and it takes a tremendous amount of coordination and planning at the Corps/Air Force equivalent level to make that happen.
We just see people fall out of airplanes and get awarded little stars and think that it is a waste. Seeing what goes into the larger plan would reveal how much detail, coordination and support is required.
The 82nd plans and executes these drops every year – have been for many years and it takes a tremendous amount of coordination and planning at the Corps/Air Force equivalent level to make that happen.
We just see people fall out of airplanes and get awarded little stars and think that it is a waste. Seeing what goes into the larger plan would reveal how much detail, coordination and support is required.
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SPC Robert DeVolld
Maj Richard "Ernie" R. I read about this in a book called Cobra II. The drop zone was already secured, but was still considered a combat jump
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There have been many drops into current situations. Iraq, Afghanistan and other locales that the general public are unaware of. This aspect of our military is not only relevant but very important for success in many situations.
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"Show me a man who will jump out of an airplane, and I'll show you a man who'll fight." - Gen. James “Jumpin’ Jim” M. Gavin
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