Posted on Feb 12, 2014
Is enough being done to stop/prevent suicide with Servicemembers and Veterans?
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Our suicide rates are at historical highs...more Soldiers/Vets have committed suicide in the last few years than all of our fallen brothers and sisters for both OEF and OIF. It's averaging 23 a day.
We have suicide prevention training, but it's only required in my unit once a year. We are taught from Day 0 that we are to have our battle buddy's back while deployed, but what about while in garrison? I don't mean to sound disrespectful or attacking anyone with this next part but...What happened to NCO's actually living by the NCO Creed? What happened to "My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind, the accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers...I know my Soldiers and will always place their needs above my own"? I get that we're in the Army, that we're Soldiers first, and there are going to be times where we have to just embrace the suck and drive on. I don't think that applies though to making sure that Soldiers are doing ok.
This is a huge issue, and I don't believe that there is enough being done. At what point is this going to be a "big enough problem" for something more to be done?
Suicide
Policy
Troops
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 40
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I have dealt with a few Soldiers who had these thoughts. What I did was devote as much of my time as humanly possible to help them. I took them to appts, ate chow with them, and showed them how much I cared. Not as an NCO, but as a person. Don't look at it as if a Soldier has the problem. They are a person just like all of us.
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SSG Christopher Freeman
To add onto that, and to use something all NCOs should know: I know my Soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. This may require you to put your life on hold to take care of them.
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My answer is uncomfortable for the military, but I feel it is worthwhile as:
a) mandatory training and PowerPoint isn't reducing the total number of suicides
b) it seems so obvious and yet is never addressed
We need to stop treating Suicide as an individual problem. We enlist folks from all walks of life, every social and economic strata- so why is our suicide rate nearly double that of every other profession in the world? We have poured millions of dollars and hours into suicide prevention training, Master Resiliency Training, poster and leaflet propaganda... what do all these items have in common that is not being addressed?
The United States armed forces.
I am talking about command climate. I am talking about general officers casually ending the careers of Soldiers who have given their heart and soul for the armed forces for five or ten or fifteen years- officers who have never met the Soldier in question. I am talking about senior NCOs who no longer counsel and know their Soldiers, and who fail to express a genuine and staked interest in the emotional and social well-being of GI Joe, the Platoon Sergeants who go home at 1630 and seem inconvenienced by phone calls from their subordinates.
To avoid the perception of, "lets blame the other guy," I submit a simple test to validate my point. Pull up a diagram of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Now take every sub-bullet contained in the diagram and ask who has the most control over it: the individual troop, the E-5/O-1 level leadership, or the E-8/O-5 level of leadership? It is so stark and clear that there can be no other conclusion, and yet instead of addressing the problem we continue to give the individual "tools" to cope with the daunting amount of nonsense rolling down to the lowest level from on high.
This can be forwarded to DUI, Sexual Harassment, and every other area in which our individual Soldiers are being failed- it's time to address the fact that while we cannot pin these statistics on race, social strata, financial background, or MOS, there is a strong correlation between the frequency of these events and the perception of command climate. We don't need another program- we need better leaders who are accountable for their decisions to an independent counsel (be it civilian oversight or an office parallel to the IG).
a) mandatory training and PowerPoint isn't reducing the total number of suicides
b) it seems so obvious and yet is never addressed
We need to stop treating Suicide as an individual problem. We enlist folks from all walks of life, every social and economic strata- so why is our suicide rate nearly double that of every other profession in the world? We have poured millions of dollars and hours into suicide prevention training, Master Resiliency Training, poster and leaflet propaganda... what do all these items have in common that is not being addressed?
The United States armed forces.
I am talking about command climate. I am talking about general officers casually ending the careers of Soldiers who have given their heart and soul for the armed forces for five or ten or fifteen years- officers who have never met the Soldier in question. I am talking about senior NCOs who no longer counsel and know their Soldiers, and who fail to express a genuine and staked interest in the emotional and social well-being of GI Joe, the Platoon Sergeants who go home at 1630 and seem inconvenienced by phone calls from their subordinates.
To avoid the perception of, "lets blame the other guy," I submit a simple test to validate my point. Pull up a diagram of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Now take every sub-bullet contained in the diagram and ask who has the most control over it: the individual troop, the E-5/O-1 level leadership, or the E-8/O-5 level of leadership? It is so stark and clear that there can be no other conclusion, and yet instead of addressing the problem we continue to give the individual "tools" to cope with the daunting amount of nonsense rolling down to the lowest level from on high.
This can be forwarded to DUI, Sexual Harassment, and every other area in which our individual Soldiers are being failed- it's time to address the fact that while we cannot pin these statistics on race, social strata, financial background, or MOS, there is a strong correlation between the frequency of these events and the perception of command climate. We don't need another program- we need better leaders who are accountable for their decisions to an independent counsel (be it civilian oversight or an office parallel to the IG).
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SGT Craig Northacker
Well-put. It is a command failure down to the lowest rank - and precipitated by Congressional and White House budgetary processes. I watched the same issues after Viet Nam - Volunteer or draft - makes no difference to the NCO and his family who is getting riffed, or the junior officers, either.
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As a soldier serving on active duty it isn't always the leaders who recognize that a soldier may be suicidal. My wife noticed I was having problems and feared that I may have been about to do something foolish. She approached my direct supervisor and unit commander about this. They both sat down with me privately and discussed what I felt needed to be done to help me get past the problem. They took my suggestions and made an appointment to see the unit Chaplain and a psychiatrist who I continued to see for 6 months until I felt that the danger had passed, after which I was informed that if I needed help in the future all I needed to do was to call and make a follow up appointment. Thank God for my wife and chain of command, otherwise I may not be here today. Leadership can be beneficial in keeping soldiers from committing suicide. But it may take someone who is closer to the individual on a daily basis to get the ball rolling.
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No, especially among Veterans. There are 53 Veterans dying everyday waiting for their benefits that are being withheld due to the VA backlog. A lot of these Veterans are just giving up because they are tired of fighting to survive without an income and the VA's attitude when you try to find out about your claim does nothing to give the Veteran any hope for the future or that the VA even cares whether you have a future or not. Congress and the prsident seem to have adopted the same attitude. Even though they could solve the backlog in less that two months with the stroke of a pen, they refuse to do so, and just continue to look the other way while our Veterans suffer. They are bending over backwards trying to get unemployment benefits extended and trying to get minimum wage raised for people who already have incomes, however Veterans, who are suffering the worst financially of these 3 groups continue to be ignored as if we don't matter. They are all eager to get on TV and make sound bites about how much they support Veterans but when it comes to actually taking action that improves the quyality of life for Veterans they continue to be absent. They hold hearings on the backlog but the people they talk to is the VA, not the Veterans. The end result is that every action that comes about because of those hearings is VA centered, not Veteran centered. Our government is essentionally just looking the other way when it come to mistreatment of Veterans, and the VA backlog is a mistreatment of Veterans and it is UNECASSARY!
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SGT Craig Northacker
The VBA consistently violates our civil rights, and those of our minor children. Their annual budget is 18.5 billion. They pay out 7.5 billion in pensions. The rest, 11 billion, is used within the VA to say no. A vet with a family on 40% would get less than 700 per month - but feels acknowledged and is not brutalized by the system and cause feelings of betrayal, hopelessness and despair. And broken families, and, and, and...let's see 700.month times 1 million vets is 700 million - so a year would be 8.4 billion with happy and productive veterans - and we would save 2.5 billion not paying people to violate the law and abuse our vets and their families. I spoke with the senior OMB rep in the Oval Office who agreed in principal.
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I know we are doing more than enough training to identify a serious matter. We have prevented way more suicides and have gotten help for those with ideations. But like what has already been said it only does so much. Most victims who successfully kill themselves are the ones who show no signs. When a victim had made his/her mind up they will drive on and unfortunately succeed. So instead of us putting numbers up of how many have killed themselves lets put up number of ones we saved. Those would out way the deaths and people would have a better outlook on what we are doing to prevent.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Spot on 1SG. Just like SA, we focus on the number of our failures and neglect to look at our successes.<br><br>
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Step 1, it's time to stop treating people like they're diseased. Suicidal thoughts have been a part of the human experience since the first caveman broke up with his cave girlfriend and realized all he has left is being chased by velociraptors.
It is not a defect. It is not a disease, it is not a syndrome. It is a perfectly normal human stress reaction. Part of the problem is the way we treat these people, like there's something wrong with them. How on earth is that supposed to help? Just be there for them. Help them. Talk to them. But treating it like it's some crazy new phenomenon, a disease or a "problem to be eradicated" is just adding to the problem.
It is not a defect. It is not a disease, it is not a syndrome. It is a perfectly normal human stress reaction. Part of the problem is the way we treat these people, like there's something wrong with them. How on earth is that supposed to help? Just be there for them. Help them. Talk to them. But treating it like it's some crazy new phenomenon, a disease or a "problem to be eradicated" is just adding to the problem.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Creationism is pretty big in the US, so I figured no one would know any better anyway ;)
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SSG William Patton
SSG, it is a disease because it has a physiological component, the reduction of critical neurotransmitters. It is identified by the DSM VI revised as a disease and can be successfully screened for and treated. Obviously you have not read or studied mental health, the causes, and treatments, or you would not have your view. Of course, you are entitled to it, but working in this field for years, I can tell you you are not correct in your assessment.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
By the criteria you've just listed, happiness and sadness are diseases. All emotions have a physiological component (for example, the release of endorphins).
My only point is, treating people like they are diseased and "icky" is only going to exascerbate the problem. There is a reason why the"D" has been dropped and it is now simply PTS.
It's time to treat human beings as human beings and not clinical subjects.
My only point is, treating people like they are diseased and "icky" is only going to exascerbate the problem. There is a reason why the"D" has been dropped and it is now simply PTS.
It's time to treat human beings as human beings and not clinical subjects.
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SSG Ralph Watkins
My local VA is nuts when anybody uses the "s" word as they call it. You mention suicide, you are then a prisoner until cleared by a psychiatric team. You try to leave, they call a code & they will stop you. When I used to see a VA shrink I tried to bring up the occasional thought & he told me not to discuss it since he would have to lock me up by the rules there. I've been to other VA's where they see the passing suicidal thought for anybody is fairly normal. Same thing goes with the civilian docs I see now. I have stopped going to the local VA for my PTSD, I pay to go to the private sector for better care.
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We have to be realistic about the topic of suicide as well. Suicidal thoughts have been a part of the human experience since the first caveman broke up with his cave girlfriend and realized all he has left is being chased by velociraptors.
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It is not a defect. It is not a disease, it is not a syndrome. It is a perfectly normal human stress reaction. Part of the problem is the way we treat these people, like there's something wrong with them. How on earth is that supposed to help? Just be there for them. Help them. Talk to them. But treating it like it's some crazy new phenomenon, or a "problem to be eradicated" is just adding to the problem.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
<p>SPC(P) Miller:</p><p><br></p><p>Psychological stressors impact the acting out and behaviors. It is imperative to create an environment of acceptance and trust. </p>
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LT (Join to see)
As a service member who took care of other injured vets overseas the awareness of battle fatigue needs to be documented for all vets. This will allow their to be no difference between vets who receive help and don't. The real impact of war is not a moment in time but a lifetime reaction to one moment. And if we care for our members it must start once the battle begins and must end once we hand the flag to their family.
If we send 18 year olds to battle who just learned to drive and then teach them to fight we must show them how to heal. One must have an outlet to deal with war. This has gotten a lot better but we must continue to be aware of our members.
Most of society will never have to deal with what our combat vets have to deal with hundreds of times. The stress of the combat zone and the reality that people WILL die and you will lose friends. It is time to discuss the best way to fight a war and make sure our leaders our aware of the sacrifice and what it takes to fight and recover. And I haven't talked about the impact on our families. For my friends and fellow brothers and sisters in arms thank you!
If we send 18 year olds to battle who just learned to drive and then teach them to fight we must show them how to heal. One must have an outlet to deal with war. This has gotten a lot better but we must continue to be aware of our members.
Most of society will never have to deal with what our combat vets have to deal with hundreds of times. The stress of the combat zone and the reality that people WILL die and you will lose friends. It is time to discuss the best way to fight a war and make sure our leaders our aware of the sacrifice and what it takes to fight and recover. And I haven't talked about the impact on our families. For my friends and fellow brothers and sisters in arms thank you!
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PO2 Joey Martinez
Very great comments. There are groups out there to help others understand. Our project is geared to break down some of those barriers you talk about. If we were to unite as a community much like we did out in the field, we may see a large decrease in the suicide rate. We at "The Devil Doc Talk Show" do some barrier demolition by laughter and venting real issues in a comedic fashion. Reach out and pass it on. We are all here for y'all, don't miss out on the opportunity.
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SSG William Patton
I have to disagree with your assessment that suicide is not a disease. It is a serious disease and is a component in many mental health disorders like depression, bipolar disorder, and PTSD to name three. It has a physiological component which makes it a disease. When neurotransmitters get out of balance it impacts how signals are sent to various parts of the brain where thoughts and emotions are controlled. The biggest of these neurotransmitters associated with depression and suicide is serotin and if it is too low, then the host can become clinically depressed and if low enough, have suicidal ideation and ultimately, if not treated, commit suicide. Soldiers returning from tours demonstrate a suicide rate much higher than the general public and that is an indicator of a systemic problem in screening and treating our returning soldiers. The VA has a battery of tests it can administer to determine if the service person is suffering from a mental disorder and the degree of impact the illness has on the person. I agree with a previous post that the VA is not doing enough to address this issue and many others with regard to benefits being held up in the backlog. Yet the government can piss off milions in giving the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups weapons to use against us. Welfare rolls have jumped up and money allocated to help those in need, but not much has been done to assist returning service men and women overcome their demons from war. It is a national disgrace the way this administration has addressed this issue.
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I've got so many thoughts on this subject in general, pertaining to both the civilian and military world, that I don't even know where to start.
I feel that a lot of the problem is how the military has gradually gone soft because of political correctness. They opened the flood gates for recruiters when Iraq was going full tilt and because of how soft training had gotten, a lot of people who would have been weeded out in years prior weren't. It seemed as if TRADOC had developed a "push them through and let their commands figure it out after" attitude. So we ended up with a soft bunch of individuals who probably weren't emotionally fit and wouldn't have made it 10 years prior.
Speaking for both the military and civilian world, the moral fabric of society has greatly degraded over the years, especially over the last decade. I saw an ad recently for the show suits and I couldn't believe the language that they were using on a basic cable channel that, at one time, you'd only hear on HBO.
Back in the early to mid 20th century, even if people weren't raised as religious, God fearing individuals, there were still basic morals, values, and disciplines that were instilled in people that we just don't really see anymore.
The media sensationalizes and a lot of times even glamorizes murder and suicide. You have all these kids that grew up seeing it on TV and think it's a way to get attention or a way out or something green good and wonderful.
If the media stopped desensitizing people and making them think that it was all ok, we might not have the issues we're seeing both inside and out of the military. Then you've got things like Call of Duty that all these kids play at much younger ages than they really should and they think "Oh wow! War is awesome! I can do this." And then when their buddy gets blown up and they see him bleeding and hear him screaming and they realize that there's no respawn, they're shattered.
I feel that a lot of the problem is how the military has gradually gone soft because of political correctness. They opened the flood gates for recruiters when Iraq was going full tilt and because of how soft training had gotten, a lot of people who would have been weeded out in years prior weren't. It seemed as if TRADOC had developed a "push them through and let their commands figure it out after" attitude. So we ended up with a soft bunch of individuals who probably weren't emotionally fit and wouldn't have made it 10 years prior.
Speaking for both the military and civilian world, the moral fabric of society has greatly degraded over the years, especially over the last decade. I saw an ad recently for the show suits and I couldn't believe the language that they were using on a basic cable channel that, at one time, you'd only hear on HBO.
Back in the early to mid 20th century, even if people weren't raised as religious, God fearing individuals, there were still basic morals, values, and disciplines that were instilled in people that we just don't really see anymore.
The media sensationalizes and a lot of times even glamorizes murder and suicide. You have all these kids that grew up seeing it on TV and think it's a way to get attention or a way out or something green good and wonderful.
If the media stopped desensitizing people and making them think that it was all ok, we might not have the issues we're seeing both inside and out of the military. Then you've got things like Call of Duty that all these kids play at much younger ages than they really should and they think "Oh wow! War is awesome! I can do this." And then when their buddy gets blown up and they see him bleeding and hear him screaming and they realize that there's no respawn, they're shattered.
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SCPO Penny Douphinett
I'm not even sure where to start, SGT. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but do Soldiers come to you with their problems? You are certainly painting with a broad brush your description of today's military. Le's not forget, a 2 star was found to have committed suicide just last month. I agree more with SFC Burroughs, it all starts with leadership. I must disclose, my son, a nuclear trained Sailor, took his own life 2 months ago, he was a PO2 and 26 years old. He did not grow up as you described, such things weren't allowed in my household. Both his father and I were in the Navy and that life was no surprise to him. I am also a clinical social worker, so mental illness is not unfamiliar to him either, my kids helped me study in graduate school after I retired.
However, most of the time, those who need help are afraid to reach out for fear of retribution. In his case it wold be loss of his clearance. Many commands have subtle or not so subtle ways of letting their people know asking for help is not welcome. Senior Enlisted and Officers more interested in their careers than their people or they show disdain for those who show "weakness"; who aren't a Sailor's Sailor or a Soldier's Soldier. Not like back when I joined the Service - "when men were men and suck it up Soldier was the order of the day". The men and women entrusted to us are not automatons, they are human beings we often times have to push to the limits and beyond to achieve our missions. It is then our duty as leaders to know our people and do all we can to make sure they are physically and emotionally/mentally well.
However, most of the time, those who need help are afraid to reach out for fear of retribution. In his case it wold be loss of his clearance. Many commands have subtle or not so subtle ways of letting their people know asking for help is not welcome. Senior Enlisted and Officers more interested in their careers than their people or they show disdain for those who show "weakness"; who aren't a Sailor's Sailor or a Soldier's Soldier. Not like back when I joined the Service - "when men were men and suck it up Soldier was the order of the day". The men and women entrusted to us are not automatons, they are human beings we often times have to push to the limits and beyond to achieve our missions. It is then our duty as leaders to know our people and do all we can to make sure they are physically and emotionally/mentally well.
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All I can say is that asking for help because of suicidal ideation carries a heavy stigma in the Army. When I worked medsurg, often we would see soldiers who were suspected of suicidal ideation get brought in and they would had to have a unit sitter with them 24/7. So that process required at least 3 soldiers ( of higher rank) to sit in 8 hour shifts and make sure the soldier didn't do attempt anything in the hospital. And you could see the disappointment on the sitter's face from across the room. Usually they didn't even look at the soldier who may have just said the wrong thing. Then they would be taken into the psych ward which was completely locked down and they would just be kept for weeks to sometimes months. It's hard to ask for help if you know you are going to probably get locked away for it. So I always tell soldiers to go to their embedded behavior health center to get seen there. Much better to be seen on the outpatient level then get stuck as an inpatient.
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SCPO Penny Douphinett
Exactly the point I was trying to make in my reply to SGT Barrie's post. For so many the cost of seeking help is so high, they can't see any way out.
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Are we referring to the ones officially counted, or the rest of them as well? A good start would be to stop prescribing anti-depressants that have a side-effect of increasing the thought of committing suicide...
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