Posted on Aug 22, 2014
Feelings on displaying the Confederate flag on your POV or person while on a military installation?
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Recently, I had a long and heated discussion with a fellow veteran about this issue. I don't know for sure whether a branch-specific reg or a DoD-wide reg exists that prohibits/allows personnel on a military installation to display the Confederate flag on their personal vehicle or on their person (e.g. a belt buckle). Maybe this is a base-specific policy and left to the judgment of the installation commander. Display of the Confederate flag is a divisive issue and people often feel really strongly one way or the other. But today, it is still a relevant topic and touches on other military leadership/discipline areas, including the actions of one member deeply offending another member -- regardless of whether said action is legal/authorized. That can create huge problems in a military unit, and this happened in a unit I personally served in. So, below are my questions for the RallyPoint community about this issue.
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 326
I am not going to judge people if they display the Confederate flag just because the media wants to go bonkers over ratings. If this flag brings anyone such great discomfort and there is a legitimate reason why said offended person is on a the installation, file a complaint in an orderly fashion. Not that I think anyone would do this but following someone until the get to their destination to talk to them about their flag is harassment.
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As an American I have the freedom to offend or be offended, just as you have that same right or just ignore you and keep going. If we decide to fight, it should just be that and not a hate crime. Some people just need an ass whupping, and I've had some. The flag is part of American history and does not belong to Nazis white supremacist anymore than the swastika belongs to Nazi Germany. The swastika design is also a native American design and has been on many blankets way before Hitler adopted it.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing While some people may associate it for ethnic pride, heritage pride, or whatever reason, they have the right to display it. Personally, I don't have any problem with it unless it is used associated with extremist groups such as the KKK.
However, displaying this flag does associate one's self with certain mentality or culture. And yes, I am generalizing and stereotyping here.
1) Rebel: I get it. I am a rebel myself. But I don't intentionally drive a gas guzzling truck in order to represent how manly I am. Nor do I complain about how much the gas is while ignoring the fact of myself being part of the problem. BTW, yes, it is "REAL" manly for you to hang some testicles from an animal that you have no chance to kill with your own bare hand.
2) Eating habit: I get it. Butter, grease, lard, and bacon fat make everything taste better. Do people have to make such poor lifestyle choice and whine about how much healthcare has become? Again, these people are the problem and they blame everybody else but themselves.
3) Environmental concern: I don't know if global warming is real or not. But I know that pollution is a real problem and these companies are dumping toxic chemicals and materials into the environment that in turn poison us and everything else. If any of your friend and family member has any kind of medical chronic disease (that may be caused by pollution) and you think it is perfectly ok to pollute the environment or too lazy to do your part to make the environment better, you need to re-evaluate how intelligent you really are.
4) Hunting: While you think you have every right to kill any innocent animal with your advanced scope and rifle and display their chopped off head in your living room, you get all angry about the Muslim radicals killing people. I personally don't think you know what empathy is and you don't have any either.
The list goes on and I run out of time.
No, I don't have any problem with people displaying the flag. I just think your intelligence is questionable and some may even fail as a human being.
As usual, there are exceptions...
However, displaying this flag does associate one's self with certain mentality or culture. And yes, I am generalizing and stereotyping here.
1) Rebel: I get it. I am a rebel myself. But I don't intentionally drive a gas guzzling truck in order to represent how manly I am. Nor do I complain about how much the gas is while ignoring the fact of myself being part of the problem. BTW, yes, it is "REAL" manly for you to hang some testicles from an animal that you have no chance to kill with your own bare hand.
2) Eating habit: I get it. Butter, grease, lard, and bacon fat make everything taste better. Do people have to make such poor lifestyle choice and whine about how much healthcare has become? Again, these people are the problem and they blame everybody else but themselves.
3) Environmental concern: I don't know if global warming is real or not. But I know that pollution is a real problem and these companies are dumping toxic chemicals and materials into the environment that in turn poison us and everything else. If any of your friend and family member has any kind of medical chronic disease (that may be caused by pollution) and you think it is perfectly ok to pollute the environment or too lazy to do your part to make the environment better, you need to re-evaluate how intelligent you really are.
4) Hunting: While you think you have every right to kill any innocent animal with your advanced scope and rifle and display their chopped off head in your living room, you get all angry about the Muslim radicals killing people. I personally don't think you know what empathy is and you don't have any either.
The list goes on and I run out of time.
No, I don't have any problem with people displaying the flag. I just think your intelligence is questionable and some may even fail as a human being.
As usual, there are exceptions...
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LCDR (Join to see)
You knowingly stereotype those of us who proudly fly the flag... and yet question OUR intellect and viability as humans? Is there somewhere they're actually teaching y'all hypocrisy?
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Case in point. When Gov. Barnes changed the Georgia state flag that had the battle flag on it in 2001 that was mostly a push from the NAACP and people mostly oitside of our state. Then Gov. Perdue let us vote on a new flag in 2003. This one is basically the First National Flag of the Confederacy with our state seat inside the circle of stars and the words "In God We Trust" as well.
What I think is funny is the state has had no problems with this flag as far as the NAACP claiming it to be racist. Why? I believe it's because most people have no idea that this is actually a copy of a confederate flag. It's all hypocritical of you ask me. From the pictures below you can see why we hated the 2001-2002 flag. I have them ordered 1957-2001 first, 2001-2002 second, and 2003-present third.
What I think is funny is the state has had no problems with this flag as far as the NAACP claiming it to be racist. Why? I believe it's because most people have no idea that this is actually a copy of a confederate flag. It's all hypocritical of you ask me. From the pictures below you can see why we hated the 2001-2002 flag. I have them ordered 1957-2001 first, 2001-2002 second, and 2003-present third.
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The Civil War was fought over slavery. (That's a period at the end of that sentence.)
Sorry.
That's the truth of the matter.
Any attempt to paint the "Rebellion" as a fight for States Rights is simply not true. It's historical revisionism, and faces a flood tide of actual documentation laying out the real issue - slavery. (Again, period)
And, no, the evils of slavery didn't end with the end of slavery. It is a festering wound that still infects America today because there are still a number of people who insist on their truth that slavery was justified.
The Confederate banner is inextricably linked to that cause.
Again, sorry.
It's true.
I too think that there's a certain appeal to its color and design, but I can't see past the evil it implies.
So, wear it if you must. Display it if you must.
Just don't be surprised that some take offense.
You are linking arms with evil.
That doesn't make you evil.
But it does cause you to suffer guilt by association.
That being said, I understand that there are many to whom the image of being a rebel has a certain appeal. (I'm one.) And there is a flag that properly represents the spirit of rebellion as well as the legitimate struggle for States Rights over and against a blotted federal bureaucracy growing tyrannical as it grows in size beyond constitutional limits. It is the Gadsden Flag embellished with a rattlesnake proclaiming "Don't tread on me".
Inasmuch as the Gadsden Flag is today associated with the TEA Party don't be surprised if it too is forbidden on military posts some day. Not because commanders revile it, but rather because their political superiors revile it.
And don't be phased by claims that the Gadsden Flag represents slavery and racial discrimination like the Stars 'n Bars. These are pejoratives that have been launched against conservatives without evidence in an effort to shut them up.
Sorry.
That's the truth of the matter.
Any attempt to paint the "Rebellion" as a fight for States Rights is simply not true. It's historical revisionism, and faces a flood tide of actual documentation laying out the real issue - slavery. (Again, period)
And, no, the evils of slavery didn't end with the end of slavery. It is a festering wound that still infects America today because there are still a number of people who insist on their truth that slavery was justified.
The Confederate banner is inextricably linked to that cause.
Again, sorry.
It's true.
I too think that there's a certain appeal to its color and design, but I can't see past the evil it implies.
So, wear it if you must. Display it if you must.
Just don't be surprised that some take offense.
You are linking arms with evil.
That doesn't make you evil.
But it does cause you to suffer guilt by association.
That being said, I understand that there are many to whom the image of being a rebel has a certain appeal. (I'm one.) And there is a flag that properly represents the spirit of rebellion as well as the legitimate struggle for States Rights over and against a blotted federal bureaucracy growing tyrannical as it grows in size beyond constitutional limits. It is the Gadsden Flag embellished with a rattlesnake proclaiming "Don't tread on me".
Inasmuch as the Gadsden Flag is today associated with the TEA Party don't be surprised if it too is forbidden on military posts some day. Not because commanders revile it, but rather because their political superiors revile it.
And don't be phased by claims that the Gadsden Flag represents slavery and racial discrimination like the Stars 'n Bars. These are pejoratives that have been launched against conservatives without evidence in an effort to shut them up.
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CW2 (Join to see)
I agree with your assertions. The cornerstone of the reasons given by the assembly had in common the issue of slavery in the south. This was given by the politicians by reasons of the rich and landed in the south, however was not the spirit undertook by the majority of its residents. Even those were varied, some protecting their homes, some conscripted, some the notion of 'don't tell me what to do', some that did not like the idea of federation to begin with. For many that get their history orally, that is closer to the idea. I personally don't see what I want in the battle flag, nor the Gadsden Flag (because of its history), I'm more of a 'hoist the black flag' type. For some though, those ideas have taken hold in that symbol (battle flag), and I understand it. For others, it represents the broader strokes, and the bad that comes with it. I understand that too. To stay true to my philosophies though, I can't take it away from either one. Everyone is free to communicate their ideas to one another, lest we start controlling one another.
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Being a native-born Virginian, I have what may appear to be contradictory answers to your questions.
(1) On or off post, any soldier proudly displaying the flag of the Confederate States of America should be reminded that they are implicitly endorsing either an alliance which waged war on the United States (during the War of Northern Aggression) or a treasonous insurrection waged against the Constitution of the United States (during the Civil War). Such an endorsement runs counter to the oath he (or she) took, and I suspect that no court would consider such a public expression to be speech protected from the military discipline.
(2) Despite my oath-bound answer above, the Confederate flag symbolizes the paradox of the Second Amendment, where the right to arm ourselves for defense against tyranny is spelled out but with no mention of the fact that any such actual defense would be the very legal definition of treason.
(3) I've lost count of how many military situations I've been in which offended someone.
That said, I've always felt that you can't be in a profession that calls for skill in breaking things and hurting people while still worrying about hurt feelings. Many, many years ago I used to drop in on meetings of Students Opposed to the Nuclear Arms Race right after ROTC Leadership Lab, sometimes still cammied up from field training. I found it amusing how visitors from elsewhere would frequently look disgusted, but the university students seemed to enjoy my contributions to the discussion (things like explaining why World War III wouldn't be over in 30 minutes after a single massive missile volley). It's amazing what being polite and careful about your facts can do for discussing serious matters with folks who are really open-minded.
(1) On or off post, any soldier proudly displaying the flag of the Confederate States of America should be reminded that they are implicitly endorsing either an alliance which waged war on the United States (during the War of Northern Aggression) or a treasonous insurrection waged against the Constitution of the United States (during the Civil War). Such an endorsement runs counter to the oath he (or she) took, and I suspect that no court would consider such a public expression to be speech protected from the military discipline.
(2) Despite my oath-bound answer above, the Confederate flag symbolizes the paradox of the Second Amendment, where the right to arm ourselves for defense against tyranny is spelled out but with no mention of the fact that any such actual defense would be the very legal definition of treason.
(3) I've lost count of how many military situations I've been in which offended someone.
That said, I've always felt that you can't be in a profession that calls for skill in breaking things and hurting people while still worrying about hurt feelings. Many, many years ago I used to drop in on meetings of Students Opposed to the Nuclear Arms Race right after ROTC Leadership Lab, sometimes still cammied up from field training. I found it amusing how visitors from elsewhere would frequently look disgusted, but the university students seemed to enjoy my contributions to the discussion (things like explaining why World War III wouldn't be over in 30 minutes after a single massive missile volley). It's amazing what being polite and careful about your facts can do for discussing serious matters with folks who are really open-minded.
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CW2 (Join to see)
It's 3 years old, but I'll bite on number 2. It is written that way for a reason: They did it. If you have to fight that fight, it would be treason, but it's an obligation to be able to do so, according to them. There were many words in the Federalist and Anti-federalist papers that illustrated some of the minds of the men fighting over the details. It's a fun exercise in discovering their discoveries and discussions, reading what they read; they took a lot from the ancient, the classical, the renaissance, ages of reason and discovery in the west, absolutism of the day starting to take hold in continental Europe, the mercantilism of the day just on the cusp of industrialization, just trying to take them apart and create a foundation that we could all at least not hate. Come to think of it, anti-federalist paper 54 illustrates the sort of problems the helped the war come to fruition in the 1860s. Already differing views on that one topic. There were many.
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Freedom of speech: yes.
Smart: No.
Doing this on post has only one reason I can think of, "pay attention to me."
The attention you will receive is bound to be both disruptive and negative. You will likely end up in some commander's office. So why?
Smart: No.
Doing this on post has only one reason I can think of, "pay attention to me."
The attention you will receive is bound to be both disruptive and negative. You will likely end up in some commander's office. So why?
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My great grandfather was a union Sgt. From the 9th Pennsylvania as was my Great great great grandfather both were union. GGGF fought at Gettysburg, I have a picture of him ,his wife in. Her bee hive bun and him in his union Tunic. I have a copy of his diary and picture of his peach tree twigs notched from. Each battle. He was in. My GGGGF fought At Sharpsburg, Union known as Antietam.
The war has been over for over 150 years or more. The pros and cons will go on for another 150 years. It was a part of history. I am from the south. Born in Marietta Ga. Outside. Atlanta . I have lived in Texas Missouri. Georgia and. Am very proud of the south as it stands today,hospitality, friendly people, good food and atmosphere. There are customs and history from each part of the United States. We beat the French during the war of 1812 but we still drink. French wine. We were beaten at the Alamo, but we annexed Texas and California, and we eat a lot of Tex- Mex and drink Corona beer, we even beat the Red Coats from the British Empire, but we adopted a lot of thier customs. We invented a flag disturbing to the British Empire. Now.....GOING BACK TO the Flag of Dixie, it does not stand for hatred or racism, that is in the mind of the viewer, which is your. 1st AMMENDMENT rights. HOWEVER , I also have those same rights, to display. The Confederate flag where and when I want to, to remember Southern Pride, Dixie, hospitality. A beer with the good ole boys. Bubba, Buford or Mary Jane. It represents pride from being from the south and growing up in a land of near poverty for those living in near poverty and the Ozarks, but will help a neighbor out in a second. Therefore we are proud of Dixie, our way of life our customs our flag and our homeland . AGAIN RACISM AND HATRED AND THOSE THOUGHTS ARE IN THE MIND OF THE VIEWER.......NOT. THE DISPLAYER.
The war has been over for over 150 years or more. The pros and cons will go on for another 150 years. It was a part of history. I am from the south. Born in Marietta Ga. Outside. Atlanta . I have lived in Texas Missouri. Georgia and. Am very proud of the south as it stands today,hospitality, friendly people, good food and atmosphere. There are customs and history from each part of the United States. We beat the French during the war of 1812 but we still drink. French wine. We were beaten at the Alamo, but we annexed Texas and California, and we eat a lot of Tex- Mex and drink Corona beer, we even beat the Red Coats from the British Empire, but we adopted a lot of thier customs. We invented a flag disturbing to the British Empire. Now.....GOING BACK TO the Flag of Dixie, it does not stand for hatred or racism, that is in the mind of the viewer, which is your. 1st AMMENDMENT rights. HOWEVER , I also have those same rights, to display. The Confederate flag where and when I want to, to remember Southern Pride, Dixie, hospitality. A beer with the good ole boys. Bubba, Buford or Mary Jane. It represents pride from being from the south and growing up in a land of near poverty for those living in near poverty and the Ozarks, but will help a neighbor out in a second. Therefore we are proud of Dixie, our way of life our customs our flag and our homeland . AGAIN RACISM AND HATRED AND THOSE THOUGHTS ARE IN THE MIND OF THE VIEWER.......NOT. THE DISPLAYER.
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CPO Rick Felty
The south is so good northerners. Go there to retire, no one from the south goes north to retire. Got to be something good. Going on in Dixie.
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CPO Rick Felty
I fly it......if you hate it......I smile. And you frown in disdain. The stress is on you..you. Have an ulcer not me.
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I dont like it. I hate to seeing it. Its distasteful. It was the Flag of the enemy. I can understand if it was a state flag, but it isn't. I think it a slap in the face for a service member to wear of fly the flag.It's one of the many things that causes division amongst the people of this nation. I lived in and went to school in Raleigh, North Carolina and I cant remember seeing this flag displayed publicly. How the flag reminds someone of home, I just cant understand it. Did I really just read a comment that said, "I had a Black Soldier from SC who had a Rebel flag up in his Room. I think he also had one on his huge pickup truck as well." Wow! But that's just my $0.02.
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CPT Mike Sims
Jerelle, while it may be distasteful to you - just remember it is still protected under the First Amendment guaranteed by the Constitution. As for the state flag... it actually is the Mississippi state flag. As for being the "enemy"... these guys were not the enemy - they were and still are citizens of this country... they separated because they felt the rights of their states. Arlington cemetery by the way used to belong to General Lee and a lot of our military bases are named after some Confederate Generals (Fort Lee, Fort Bragg, Fort Jackson - etc.) - why? Well, because regardless of how people feel - it is a part of our American history. Just remember a symbol - usually means something different to everybody (some people dislike it, some people like it). I once had several Soldiers that had different flags in their rooms... one had an Irish flag - because he had ancestry from Ireland - another one had an African flag - another had a Canadian flag - another one had a Vietnam flag (this Soldier was actually Vietnamese whose family immigrated to the United States). We still had guys in the military at that time (senior leaders) who were Vietnam Veterans. When I asked each of them why they flew these flags - they each responded "because of my family and my heritage". When I asked each of them what nationality they considered themselves first... they each responded American... so American-Vietnamese, American-African, American-Canadian, American-Irish! American being the key answer I was looking for. After that, you can be whatever you want to be as long as you are American first. I think that's part of the problem we have in our country today... too many people want to be something else first - just being an American first will help us all to unite. Like you, that's just my $.02 and when in a firefight - I can tell you that no of the other stuff matters! Good luck in your career and may you find success at each phase in life.
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1LT (Join to see)
Gentlemen, thanks for your comments. Although, they may be different at times, I appreciate hearing the views of others. I was assigned to Lee, Hood, and Bragg, even did a staff ride to Gettysburg and my thoughts/views have always been the same. I must remind you that just because you can doesn't mean you should. Sure, the Army doesn't agree with everything I do nor does it agree with every feeling I have toward an issue. However, the question that was asked by the gentleman was, "How do YOU feel...". I totally agree that its a part of our history. Moreover, many chapters of our history are dark and ugly. Just because one person of a certain ethnicity flies a flag, that doesn't reflect what the entire ethnicity feels, and it certainly isn't the final answer or cure all. "Welp, SPC Snuffy is cool with it, so I guess they are all cool with it." Wrong answer!
CPT Mike Sims, How much controversy and debate have we seen over the flag being flown in that State? Why are there many counties and cities in Alabama that refuse to fly their state flag because it looks too much like the Confederate flag? Probably because more than a few people, regardless of race, have deemed it distasteful. But, the state flag doesn't even scratch the surface when discussing issues regarding Mississippi. However, I agree with your last statement that too many people want to be something else than American. I hate the term African-American, but that's a whole other can of worms. Again, thanks for the response and kind words.
CPT Mike Sims, How much controversy and debate have we seen over the flag being flown in that State? Why are there many counties and cities in Alabama that refuse to fly their state flag because it looks too much like the Confederate flag? Probably because more than a few people, regardless of race, have deemed it distasteful. But, the state flag doesn't even scratch the surface when discussing issues regarding Mississippi. However, I agree with your last statement that too many people want to be something else than American. I hate the term African-American, but that's a whole other can of worms. Again, thanks for the response and kind words.
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CPT Mike Sims
Jerelle, just remember the one thing that makes us a great country is that we can have differences of opinion, express our beliefs (without threatening or harming people) and still come together as one nation to solve many problems. Look at Iraq today (I fought there some time ago)... they kill each other just over a few minor differences. It's OK that we have a past that was bad... but we should not let those moments define our future. We choose our destiny and let's hope that we always have a nation of men and women willing to serve under one flag today in order to protect the rights of all and defend this country so that generations after us will carry on our legacy.
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1LT (Join to see)
Agreed sir. Maintaining civility when faced with disagreement is critical. However bad our past was, it ours and we must own it.
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Being born and raised in the South, I have an affinity for the Confederate Battle Flag, however I also know the deep-seated animosity felt towards it because of it's use by the KKK and other hate groups. When I was stationed at Ft. Carson, '88-'91, the Garrison Commander banned it from display on any and all vehicles so as to prevent any ill feelings. This was done in response to a heightening of tensions between African-American and Caucasian Soldiers at the time, he also banned any and all clothing, flags etc portraying the late Malcolm X as they were in fashion at the time in a promotion of resistance/outrage against the government/and many Caucasians.
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LCDR (Join to see)
While I see that as giving in to the heckler's veto, the fact that he swatted down both sides would prevent me from having any hard feelings or resistance to it.
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SFC William Swartz Jr
Agreed sir, while I was never a flag waving individual, the fact that he laid the smack down evenly across the board made it easier to accept for all.
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CPO Rick Felty
As a. Commander in charge of the base. He. Just laid down command policy evenly. There was a time before your time maybe, when women could not wear shorts in the BX nor could a person go in. Wearing a T shirt plain or not. There was even a time when BDU's were not to be worm off base let alone in a bar or restaurant. Stricter times. In the military should return to all commands.
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