Posted on Aug 22, 2014
Feelings on displaying the Confederate flag on your POV or person while on a military installation?
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Recently, I had a long and heated discussion with a fellow veteran about this issue. I don't know for sure whether a branch-specific reg or a DoD-wide reg exists that prohibits/allows personnel on a military installation to display the Confederate flag on their personal vehicle or on their person (e.g. a belt buckle). Maybe this is a base-specific policy and left to the judgment of the installation commander. Display of the Confederate flag is a divisive issue and people often feel really strongly one way or the other. But today, it is still a relevant topic and touches on other military leadership/discipline areas, including the actions of one member deeply offending another member -- regardless of whether said action is legal/authorized. That can create huge problems in a military unit, and this happened in a unit I personally served in. So, below are my questions for the RallyPoint community about this issue.
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Please try to keep comments professional (don't attack one another) and explain your thoughts as best you can.
Questions:
(1) How do you feel about the Confederate flag being displayed on the vehicle/person of a service member if he/she is ON post? How does your opinion change if the member is OFF post?
(2) What does the Confederate flag symbolize to you personally? What do you think it can symbolize to other people around you who may perceive it differently?
(3) If you have personally experienced a military-related situation where a symbol/flag caused someone to be offended, what happened and what did you/would you have done as the leader?
I look fwd to everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I have some strong feelings about this issue, though I don't want to bias people's answers upfront. Please be as honest as possible.
Tag: SSG Emily Williams Col (Join to see) 1SG Steven Stankovich SSG Scott Williams 1LT Sandy Annala CPT (Join to see) SSG V. Michelle Woods MSG Carl Cunningham
Regulation
Policy
Respect
Confederate Flag
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 326
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personally...whenever I see it being flown at events like a concert or a diesel truck show ( I dont go to those, but I live by the fair grounds that hosts one every year) I just point and laugh and think to myself "idiots!"
I also do not think it should be flown for the very simple reason...they are flags of a nation whose ass we kicked in war...yes, Virgina, the north DID win the Civil War...so, no, it should not be flown...or be given any special favor...its the flag of a losing side...
I also do not think it should be flown for the very simple reason...they are flags of a nation whose ass we kicked in war...yes, Virgina, the north DID win the Civil War...so, no, it should not be flown...or be given any special favor...its the flag of a losing side...
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I was doing a websearch for the Philippine KKK flag and found that the Sons of Confederate Veterans have been "fighting" against the KKK for use of the American Flag. The KKK have been flying the American Flag for decades.
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Excellent topic... and I am way late.
I know this is not new, but this has been on my list since I left NJ in 1980... As a NJ resident, this flag/symbol etc always meant racism, white supremacy, and hate to me; plain and simple. I am educated, and I understand this particular symbol has different meanings to different people, based on where you are from, and even what color you are.
I have listened to both sides, and ultimately it is about what others think it means, not what you think it means. I see it, today, as insensitive and out of bounds. If I could, I would outlaw it.
Aside from personal feelings (bias/prejudice), I first saw this an issue, when I was at West Point, at an Army Football Game. Army was playing the Citadel, and all their fans were waving the confederate flag in the visiting teams seats... It was not well received and very emotional to many... At West Point, in NY, and in the Army, it was not considered to be a good thing... The Citadel crowd just saw it as normal...
Another time, as a TAC Officer, I had to explain to a Cadet (Plebe/Freshman) from Georgia, who had a full size confederate flag in his room, why he should not/could not have this displayed...
Now that I deal with HS students, this is actually part of the curriculum (Cultural Diversity, and being a Leader in a culturally diverse world). We actually discuss this and many other symbols. Still, since our student population is over 75% military family members, who move around a lot, the opinions are varied. This is actually one of my favorite classes.
I generally ask the Cadets how they would feel if their leader had this as a tattoo, or how would they feel if they reported to their leader and that leader had this flag hanging behind their desk (I have actually seen that).
In the end, they are all symbols, and as a leader you need to focus on what it means to everyone, not just the one displaying it.
I know this is not new, but this has been on my list since I left NJ in 1980... As a NJ resident, this flag/symbol etc always meant racism, white supremacy, and hate to me; plain and simple. I am educated, and I understand this particular symbol has different meanings to different people, based on where you are from, and even what color you are.
I have listened to both sides, and ultimately it is about what others think it means, not what you think it means. I see it, today, as insensitive and out of bounds. If I could, I would outlaw it.
Aside from personal feelings (bias/prejudice), I first saw this an issue, when I was at West Point, at an Army Football Game. Army was playing the Citadel, and all their fans were waving the confederate flag in the visiting teams seats... It was not well received and very emotional to many... At West Point, in NY, and in the Army, it was not considered to be a good thing... The Citadel crowd just saw it as normal...
Another time, as a TAC Officer, I had to explain to a Cadet (Plebe/Freshman) from Georgia, who had a full size confederate flag in his room, why he should not/could not have this displayed...
Now that I deal with HS students, this is actually part of the curriculum (Cultural Diversity, and being a Leader in a culturally diverse world). We actually discuss this and many other symbols. Still, since our student population is over 75% military family members, who move around a lot, the opinions are varied. This is actually one of my favorite classes.
I generally ask the Cadets how they would feel if their leader had this as a tattoo, or how would they feel if they reported to their leader and that leader had this flag hanging behind their desk (I have actually seen that).
In the end, they are all symbols, and as a leader you need to focus on what it means to everyone, not just the one displaying it.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Sir,
If we're going to focus on it as a symbol, then we have to fully regard it as such, including what it means when we denigrate or attempt to ban that symbol. As a southerner, if I'm told to take it off my truck, what I hear loud and clear is "we welcome everyone but you, Hillbilly."
If we're going to focus on it as a symbol, then we have to fully regard it as such, including what it means when we denigrate or attempt to ban that symbol. As a southerner, if I'm told to take it off my truck, what I hear loud and clear is "we welcome everyone but you, Hillbilly."
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I think people are offended for the wrong reasons.
You should be offended by our countries education system. Offended by people actively telling others to not vaccinate their children.
This is a non issue. People making a mountain out of a mole hill.
If you're offended by this, then I say, 'so what. Who gives a fuck. Grow thicker skin.'
You should be offended by our countries education system. Offended by people actively telling others to not vaccinate their children.
This is a non issue. People making a mountain out of a mole hill.
If you're offended by this, then I say, 'so what. Who gives a fuck. Grow thicker skin.'
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As I have seen the flag used a symbol that many people raise issue with this particular flag of the Confederacy. To the point historically when they use this flag in such a way they are using not the Flag of the Confederate States of America, but they are using a symbol use by the Confederate Army only to help ensure to communicate in the heat and fog of battle that Southern Regiments could be identified due to the fact the Confederate Flag was 3 bars with blue patch with stars in a circle, one star for each star. Much like the flag of the Revolutionary war, but in the early battles this caused confusion with southern troops firing upon their own. So the more well known Battle Flag came about. My attitude about it is w
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
Is why let it cause you to hate or anything. It is historical artifact that some honor, due to family heritage. Much like many of us who can trace our roots back to 1812 and 1775 do today, as was those that serve on the Union side. The Confederate loses during those 5 years can't be ignored today, and should not have been on the past. We were all Americans, as we are today.
It's a shame that it took until this war to abolish Slavery in the U.S. This War didn't start out to free the slaves to begin with, it was about individual state rights, and other economical issue the Southern States had at the time. During the war, Lincoln was oppose of freeing the slaves at the start, but as the war continued. To deprive one enemy of it resources, President Lincoln then free them. So how this flag became a symbolic for the suppression of group of people is beyond anything other than fear and hatred instilled by people who refuse to accept they had lost the war. A change of live was upon America, and sadly it women would get far more Rights, before all Americans were equal in eyes of the law, throughout the land.
So Specialist Jones wants to wear shirt displaying the Confederate Battle Flag so be it. If Captain Hellen want a plate as a Confederate Battle Flag, so be it. When Sergeant First C lass Grant a tart handing out cards and literature for a racist group meeting, well that has no place on the military, period.
It's a shame that it took until this war to abolish Slavery in the U.S. This War didn't start out to free the slaves to begin with, it was about individual state rights, and other economical issue the Southern States had at the time. During the war, Lincoln was oppose of freeing the slaves at the start, but as the war continued. To deprive one enemy of it resources, President Lincoln then free them. So how this flag became a symbolic for the suppression of group of people is beyond anything other than fear and hatred instilled by people who refuse to accept they had lost the war. A change of live was upon America, and sadly it women would get far more Rights, before all Americans were equal in eyes of the law, throughout the land.
So Specialist Jones wants to wear shirt displaying the Confederate Battle Flag so be it. If Captain Hellen want a plate as a Confederate Battle Flag, so be it. When Sergeant First C lass Grant a tart handing out cards and literature for a racist group meeting, well that has no place on the military, period.
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The Brazilian Town Where the American Confederacy Lives On | VICE | United States
The Confederados are one of the last remaining enclaves of the children of the unreconstructed South.
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I am wondering what the regulations are as to the Rainbow Coalition Flag or the Coexist Banner were to be flown. They also represent a philosophy and an embodiment of the values of a people.
What about more of the Global Flags for a one people / one world?
I have spent the past 2 hours reading the many replies to this, most are extremely thought out and offer a very good perspective and how they personally or with family feel on this and why.
There is only one question that needs to be asked.....
When "Colors" plays, which flag do you turn and salute as a member of the United States Military?
What about more of the Global Flags for a one people / one world?
I have spent the past 2 hours reading the many replies to this, most are extremely thought out and offer a very good perspective and how they personally or with family feel on this and why.
There is only one question that needs to be asked.....
When "Colors" plays, which flag do you turn and salute as a member of the United States Military?
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The flag is to me like the "Allah Huwa Akbar" shout. It means one thing to devout muslims but to me it sez "Take cover, lock and load etc" The CSA flag has multiple interpretations. One's race and region likely serve as good predictors of your opinion on it.
In all likelihood few KKK types are openly running around advertising bigotry. Though I don't have any flag decal on any POV I have for years been involved with SCV. Sons of Confederate Veterans is not threat to anyone. No political agenda beyond their own self-described commitment to "Historical accuracy" as it pertains to "heritage violations"
And yet thru neglect and indifference the CSA battle flag increasingly has been commandeered by Klanners and other kooks, despite the best efforts of SCV to deny the flag's use to advance any modern 20th or 21st century political/racist agenda.
White good old boys are loyal to the south. That doesnt mean they celebrate George Wallace or Lester Maddux or Orval Faubus or (insert segregationist name here). For most folks I suspect the CSA flag is a point of "ethnic pride" not unlike the way Puerto Rican troops (even those born here in CONUS with zero connection to the island anymore) adorn their POVs with the flag of their beloved Commonwealth. Remember if the flag has blue stripes and a star on a RED field you may or may not be facing an ally!!
If you want to venerate the bravery of an ancestor (which is really what most old SCV folks want most to do) use the CSA "national flag": it is 7 stars in a circle on a blue field. Then to the right of the star circle is a broad red/white/red triple stripes.
In all likelihood few KKK types are openly running around advertising bigotry. Though I don't have any flag decal on any POV I have for years been involved with SCV. Sons of Confederate Veterans is not threat to anyone. No political agenda beyond their own self-described commitment to "Historical accuracy" as it pertains to "heritage violations"
And yet thru neglect and indifference the CSA battle flag increasingly has been commandeered by Klanners and other kooks, despite the best efforts of SCV to deny the flag's use to advance any modern 20th or 21st century political/racist agenda.
White good old boys are loyal to the south. That doesnt mean they celebrate George Wallace or Lester Maddux or Orval Faubus or (insert segregationist name here). For most folks I suspect the CSA flag is a point of "ethnic pride" not unlike the way Puerto Rican troops (even those born here in CONUS with zero connection to the island anymore) adorn their POVs with the flag of their beloved Commonwealth. Remember if the flag has blue stripes and a star on a RED field you may or may not be facing an ally!!
If you want to venerate the bravery of an ancestor (which is really what most old SCV folks want most to do) use the CSA "national flag": it is 7 stars in a circle on a blue field. Then to the right of the star circle is a broad red/white/red triple stripes.
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MAJ (Join to see)
As it says in the Bible if something causes a brother to stumble it is best to get rid of it. Of course, there is also an opp to educate the brother whose offense might not be truly justified. In Tx one of the biggest defenders of CSA historic heritage is in fact an African American man (somewhat of a kook to many) who wears a grey confederate uniform.
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My personal belief is that it is unappropriated. Regardless of your personal beliefs on the purpose and ramifications of the Civil War, and what the symbol means to you, the fact of the matter is it is the flag of a belligerent organization which violated the US Constitution. It was an enemy of which the United States Army fought it's bloodiest war. I do not believe it appropriate for US military members to take up the symbol of an enemy of which no peace was ever attained. I would expect US military not to fly the flag of North Korea, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, or the Saddam Regime Iraqi flag.
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MAJ (Join to see)
The CSA men felt it was the Unon which violated the constitution. Robert E. Lee openly despised slavery as what it was "a moral and political evil" and yet Lee also famously said "a Federal union of states which requires rifles and bayonets to hold it together can never hold any affections from me". That to me says a great deal. Lincoln to his eternal credit was willing to "by any means necessary" keep the Union together. Had the nation split apart we would likely had a heavily patroled border for the 19th and most of the 20th century. Moreover as Harry Turtledove vividly imagined it, CSA and USA would have likely been drawn into WW1 or WW2 on oppposite sides.
Like Lee, most of the CSA officer corps were Westpoint educate men but their allegiance to state above national govt though we may fault it in 21st century was entirely understood. Prior to CW folks said the United States "are" [not is] and one's primary loyalty was to New Hampshire or Massachusetts or Alabama. The CW was necessary to modernize our nation and truly bind us together as one and not just different tribes and factions as we see in premodern nations around the globe to this very day.
Like Lee, most of the CSA officer corps were Westpoint educate men but their allegiance to state above national govt though we may fault it in 21st century was entirely understood. Prior to CW folks said the United States "are" [not is] and one's primary loyalty was to New Hampshire or Massachusetts or Alabama. The CW was necessary to modernize our nation and truly bind us together as one and not just different tribes and factions as we see in premodern nations around the globe to this very day.
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SPC Christopher Morehouse
They waited until after Lincolns election to break away. They did not want to honor the election, or constitutional process for changing laws, and so they blatantly violated them by saying in no uncertain terms "The US Constitution no longer applies here. Federal Law no longer applies here. Go Screw yourself".
As much as those confederate officers who were west point graduates might have been good leaders, they were also all traitors. They Swore this Oath: ""I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."
There is no grey area there. in 1982 the Oath was changed for officers to include affirmation that they have never taken up arms against the US, or supported actions against the Constitution.
Lee might have felt that the Union wasn't worth preserving if it had to be done by force of Arms, but that's a flawed logic at best and a delusional justification for his loyalty to Virginia over the Union at worst. It was a flawed justification for breaking his oath because powers that be in the South were frustrated with their diminishing influence to keep the status quo.
As much as those confederate officers who were west point graduates might have been good leaders, they were also all traitors. They Swore this Oath: ""I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."
There is no grey area there. in 1982 the Oath was changed for officers to include affirmation that they have never taken up arms against the US, or supported actions against the Constitution.
Lee might have felt that the Union wasn't worth preserving if it had to be done by force of Arms, but that's a flawed logic at best and a delusional justification for his loyalty to Virginia over the Union at worst. It was a flawed justification for breaking his oath because powers that be in the South were frustrated with their diminishing influence to keep the status quo.
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