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Overheard an interesting discussion in the lunch area at work yesterday. At another table, a guy was talking about weapons and whatnot. Let me start by saying a lot of what he was saying was just untrue craziness but whatever that isn't the point. He did make one comment that got me thinking. According to him, females make better marksman than guys because of what he classified as "built in gun rests" and a wider base.
During my eight and half years of service I been to plenty of ranges and seen plenty of great marksmen both male and female. So I'm not saying that one gender has the advantage over the other. Yet it did get me thinking. Is there any advantage that one gender has over the other? Personally, I would say no, it comes down to your ability to follow the fundamentals. So now I figured it would be a fun discussion to have here on RallyPoint. So, to the RP Community, do you feel that gender plays a role in marksmanship?
During my eight and half years of service I been to plenty of ranges and seen plenty of great marksmen both male and female. So I'm not saying that one gender has the advantage over the other. Yet it did get me thinking. Is there any advantage that one gender has over the other? Personally, I would say no, it comes down to your ability to follow the fundamentals. So now I figured it would be a fun discussion to have here on RallyPoint. So, to the RP Community, do you feel that gender plays a role in marksmanship?
Marksmanship
Gender
Firearms and Guns
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 23
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Based on my personal experience, I can't really say one gender or another has the advantage. I do however believe that those that have never fired a weapon have a better advantage over those that have simply for the fact that they haven't developed bad habits and they are more likely to follow the fundamentals easier. Again, this is just based off of my personal experience.
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SGT (Join to see)
Presisely what I am saying, SFC (Join to see). "I am a wise man for I know nothing" - Socrates. SGT Ben Keen here is a confirmation.
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SPC George Adkins
Do you ever have any trainees with real marksmanship training prior to coming in? If so, how do they do? My children began shooting at very early ages (6 & 5) on the AR/M16 platforms. While I'm not sure if either will ever serve in uniform, I am curious to learn how they may measure up.
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SFC (Join to see)
I think it all depends on the individual. Although it is common to see many with some prior experience, it really depends on if the individual is willing to be receptive to the instruction given to them on Basic Rifle Marksmanship and their willingness to initiate the fundamentals given to them. Some may do very well where others may do poorly.
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CPL(P) (Join to see)
Depends on the DS as well. We had one who thought that shooting cock-legged was wrong, among other things (yes, he was infantry).
The USAMU rifle TC didn't agree with him, but I was just a private and was smart enough to know I didn't know that.
The USAMU rifle TC didn't agree with him, but I was just a private and was smart enough to know I didn't know that.
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There is some argument that the way females eyes work makes them better marksmen, although I haven't seen any research to back it up. The argument about "built in stock rest" is a complete fallacy as every bit of experience I have had with teaching females to shoot points to the exact opposite. As for the wider base, I think stance has more to do with it than width of hips, but once again I have no research to back it up.
My wife makes an argument that the good females marksmen are such because of self selection. Basically because there are so few professional female marksmen, the ones that exist strive to be the best overall, not just the best females, and therefore comparatively are excellent.
My wife makes an argument that the good females marksmen are such because of self selection. Basically because there are so few professional female marksmen, the ones that exist strive to be the best overall, not just the best females, and therefore comparatively are excellent.
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Let's try rephrasing the question to:
"Are there physiological advantages that apply to marksmanship, that one gender possesses over the other, and if so, what are they?"
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s1 [login to see] -y#page-2
"The current study aimed to compare shooting performance between male and female athletes during the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Rifle Championship from the 2007 to 2013 seasons. This sport is distinct from most competitive sports as it requires little physical exertion, so physiological/ biomechanical differences between the genders that generally bring about superior performance by males relative to females may have only minimal effect on shooting performance. NCAA competitions, unlike Olympic shooting events today, allow male and female shooters to compete against each other. Using archival data covering a period of 7 years from both the team and individual tournaments, 555 scores of the best 149 shooters among mostly U.S. collegiate athletes (the best of whom went on to compete in the Olympics) were analyzed using a generalized estimating equation (GEE) model. We found no differences in performance between the genders both during team and individual competitions. The results suggest that Olympic shooting is exercising a “separate and (un)equal” policy which should be reconsidered."
"Are there physiological advantages that apply to marksmanship, that one gender possesses over the other, and if so, what are they?"
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s1 [login to see] -y#page-2
"The current study aimed to compare shooting performance between male and female athletes during the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Rifle Championship from the 2007 to 2013 seasons. This sport is distinct from most competitive sports as it requires little physical exertion, so physiological/ biomechanical differences between the genders that generally bring about superior performance by males relative to females may have only minimal effect on shooting performance. NCAA competitions, unlike Olympic shooting events today, allow male and female shooters to compete against each other. Using archival data covering a period of 7 years from both the team and individual tournaments, 555 scores of the best 149 shooters among mostly U.S. collegiate athletes (the best of whom went on to compete in the Olympics) were analyzed using a generalized estimating equation (GEE) model. We found no differences in performance between the genders both during team and individual competitions. The results suggest that Olympic shooting is exercising a “separate and (un)equal” policy which should be reconsidered."
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SGT Ben Keen
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - I can appreciate the physiological aspect behind. I think we can all agree that when it comes to marksmanship, a lot if is mental. Let's just think back to being a the range. If you have a bad night, it will sometimes reflect the next on the range. I believe this idea echos in a lot of aspects of life. Yet, it's interesting to see the thoughts and ideas people have already been throwing around here. With a lot of the changes happening across the DoD, I think it is rather awesome that we have been looking at the overall picture rather than focusing on just the physical differences between the genders as the guy in my opening statement did yesterday.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SGT Ben Keen I ignored the mental aspect because I don't think "mental" will affect the distribution curve of overall performance. However, Physiology "might."
In general, women are smaller, and shaped differently, however our weaponry is NOT adjusted to their dimensions. Add in differences to cardio-respiratory, and it's plausible that one gender might have an advantage when using a specific platform.
That's why I grabbed an actual Study. Their findings were "Null" when it came to marksmanship performance at the collegiate level, whereas most other sports have distinct physiological advantages (running, golf, basketball, etc).
In general, women are smaller, and shaped differently, however our weaponry is NOT adjusted to their dimensions. Add in differences to cardio-respiratory, and it's plausible that one gender might have an advantage when using a specific platform.
That's why I grabbed an actual Study. Their findings were "Null" when it came to marksmanship performance at the collegiate level, whereas most other sports have distinct physiological advantages (running, golf, basketball, etc).
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Yes and no. Typically, we probably heard that females make great marksmen (or markswomen? LOL) because they tend to approach the matter as not knowing much. Well if some the male ego be shredded/proned away before approaching a learning platform then the results may be better. Socrates once said, "I am a wise man I know nothing". It is exactly why people who never EVER drove may learn how to drive a manual (stick-shift) better than those who have driven automatic (standard) for decades.
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SGT Ben Keen
SGT (Join to see) - You mean we don't have super powers!?!!? Crap, that explains a lot. I couldn't agree with you more about echos and the role they play in such things as marksmanship. As a male, we are raised from the start that we are the provider, the protector, the man and yes we should do all that. As a father, I'm charged with raising my kids, providing for them not only with a warm, safe place to live but to provide them with the necessary tools to be successful. My daughter is about to turn 9 in a few weeks. When this hit me, the first thought that hit my head was "I'm not ready for this" yet the same event passed for my son a year ago and my first thought was great, he's getting older and more mature. This type of idea, the man being the man, goes back to the earliest day when humans took their first steps on the earth. It was the man that hunted and provided while the female kept the cave clean. Those days are long gone as well as they should be. It is by no means perfect, but it is great to see more and more females take up some of these roles that once were offered only to men. Yet, the male echo remains and I think we can all agree that within a community such as the military where we are asked to put aside our own being for the betterment of others, to be the provider and protector for countless others, that alpha role exists a lot more than in other communities where roles and responsibilities are shared a lot more.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT Ben Keen In light of the evolutionary concept you mentioned, I have to point out that there is a good reason why our physical abilities differ. I am sorry this might upset some folks out here, but masculinity has its purpose and we should not slam it-we respond better to praise and not criticism. The same goes for females, their features are to be respected and praised, NOT criticized—they respond better that way too.
My daughter also turn 9 but in August. My son who is 7 years younger already feels as though he is stronger and can kick her a**. She is of course much more mature than her peer males as well LOL. I am willing to bet that when the time comes, she will probably shoot better than him.
My daughter also turn 9 but in August. My son who is 7 years younger already feels as though he is stronger and can kick her a**. She is of course much more mature than her peer males as well LOL. I am willing to bet that when the time comes, she will probably shoot better than him.
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SPC George Adkins
SGT (Join to see) - Exactly the same thoughts I have on the topic having trained many youngsters in basic marksmanship in the civilian world. The ladies don't usually enter the arena with an ego to contend with. Teenage boys are just that... teenage boys with all their "knowledge" and ego.
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I never served with females while in the Army, so I can't comment on this side. However, after training dozens of males and females in basic marksmanship in the civilian side, I believe when it comes to beginning shooters, females tend to do better than similarly untrained males. Guys tend to have more of an "I got it" attitude and aren't as receptive to instruction. Females tend to be much more receptive to learning from a zero start point. Beyond the initial training, males and females are much the same. When both sexes put in the same effort, they get the same results.
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SSgt Kevin Moynahan
I heard the same thing about female pilots. They start from 0 better. The guys wants to "feel it out" so to speak, and they're more likely to miss steps on a checklist, where a female is typically better at following (and keep following) directions. The caveat to that, is the guys will typically handle emergency situations better. [Again, at least initially in training and the beginning of their careers]
I did a short stint as a security forces augmentee, and the combat arms guys said almost the exact same thing about initially training guys and girls on mounted M240s and whatnot. The girls usually made better students.
I did a short stint as a security forces augmentee, and the combat arms guys said almost the exact same thing about initially training guys and girls on mounted M240s and whatnot. The girls usually made better students.
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I was involved in Marksmenship training and shot in Division and Intermural Matches. I think the main aspects in either gender are their willingmess to learn, quality of instruction and mentality towards weapons. One of the best shots I saw with a rifle was a female who grew up shooting NRA Matches. She became a distinguished shooter and has been a National Champion Several times.
Physically females have shorter arms and smaller hands than males, That sometimes comes into play with manipulating the weapon. The M-9 Barretta tended to be troublesome to people with small hands.
Extremely tall shooters (Mostly Males fall into this category) can have issues. Flexible shooters with a lower center of gravity ( Mostly females) can be great shooters
Physically females have shorter arms and smaller hands than males, That sometimes comes into play with manipulating the weapon. The M-9 Barretta tended to be troublesome to people with small hands.
Extremely tall shooters (Mostly Males fall into this category) can have issues. Flexible shooters with a lower center of gravity ( Mostly females) can be great shooters
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My gender doesn't make me a better marksman....It's my grip, stock weld, sight picture, breathing, and trigger squeeze that do that.
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i believe its all on the individual, i think for female soldiers msy put in more effort in marksmanship just to prove that they are just as equally qualified.
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Before the PC police get all snitty, excellent question! Ignoring difference doesn't equal respect. I have seen study reports that women are better at multitasking than men. But, that men are better at focusing on one single task. So, it could quite possibly indicate an advantage towards men when assistance is involved, like a spotter. But maybe lone sniper jobs are better suited for women. Or, in reality, the advantage may be so slight that other mitigating factors outweigh any advantage. Nevertheless, an interesting thought to ponder.
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Yes and No, depends on the person really, but here's an interesting article on one of the world's best snipers.
Lady Death, the female sniper who killed 300 Nazis
Titled 'Battle for Sevastopol' in Russia but 'Indestructible' in Ukraine, the biopic tells the remarkable story of Lyudmila Pavlichenko who reportedly killed 300 Nazis during World War Two.
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SGT Ben Keen
SrA Edward Vong - Yeah I think we are familiar with her but I'm asking about overall marksmanship not just snipers. As I said in my comments to CPT (Join to see), I'm talking overall basic marksmanship. Snipers are just a whole different bread.
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SrA Edward Vong
SGT Ben Keen
Here's an article on women being better than men at shooting. I'm going to see if I can find some statistics.
Here's an article on women being better than men at shooting. I'm going to see if I can find some statistics.
Why women rule the rifle range in NCAA competition and military posts
It’s the oddest of sports. Like darts, but without the exertion or the inebriated fans in dark, smoky bars. It’s played out in a small concrete bunker as bright and antiseptic as an operating room, but one that, oddly, smells of burnt gunpowder. The tile floors, walls and ceilings are white and illuminated by fluorescent lights that eliminate shadows. The sport is performed in silent stillness, its participants in a frozen tableau like those...
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CPT (Join to see)
Ultimate Academic Insult Classic Billy Madison
Billy Maddison
SGT Ben Keen - Using a comic book as a point of reference. This is all I got...
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