Posted on Sep 30, 2015
MSgt Curtis Ellis
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I wasn't aware this was an "Arizona" law, and I got my divorce here... I thought it was part of Federal Law? In fact, I've seen some (here) keep most/all of their retirement thanks to good lawyers and what the spouse is willing to "settle for". My lawyer wanted to do the same for me, but I opted out as I felt she was entitled, but I did have a choice/option and I think, in this veterans rush to get the divorce, she may have screwed herself, so I'm a bit confused by this Can anyone out there shed a little light on this subject?
The fact that he is a child molester and has been sentenced to life in prison, should this have bearing as to whether he is entitled to receive the spouse's retirement? Please share your justification/rationale! :)
Posted in these groups: Divorce Divorce
Edited 9 y ago
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
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MSgt Curtis Ellis - While, as the article points out, she may be required to pay because of the state's community property law, absent that, she would also be required to pay under The Uniformed Services Former Spouse Protection Act, which is a Federal law, unless that law has provisions for incarcerated persons.

I do not think it fair and think that, with a good lawyer, she could possibly get some relief. Of course, the best thing would be for the incarcerated husband to waive his right to the money or establish a trust account for the kids, where all the money is deposited.
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
COL Jean (John) F. B. I agree with both statements, Sir!
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LTC Instructor
LTC (Join to see)
9 y
COL Jean (John) F. B., it appears that USFSPA only requires dispensation of pension funds to former spouses pursuant to a court order under state law. http://www.dfas.mil/dfas/garnishment/usfspa/legal.html
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
LTC (Join to see) Definitely good info to know, Sir, and thanks for sharing the link!
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
COL Jean (John) F. B.
9 y
LTC (Join to see) - Thanks good info. Was not aware of that (although I hope never to be in a situation where I need the info)... :-)

When I was still on active duty, a co-worker and I were at lunch one day when a very nice looking young lady sat down at the table next to us. My friend commented on the young lady and joked that he would love to "take her home" with him. I told him to "go for it", to which he replied that he could not afford to because his wife would get 50% of his money. I told him that was a bargain, as she was getting 100% of it now. :-)
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SSG Michael Patton
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There's more to this story. [Joanna Gulli · Tucson, Arizona
Unfortunately, all too often, only one side of the story is reported. If all the facts were investigated it would be discovered the judge's decision was for him to receive only $100 of his half of THEIR pension, the rest going to her for child support. The judge's decision was an equitable distribution not 50/50. She received every thing else including their house, two vehicles, furnishings, all items pertaining to their home and property and bank accounts. There is no reason why her children can't go to college and live a comfortable life if she spends her money wisely.]
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SSG Michael Patton
SSG Michael Patton
9 y
MSgt Curtis Ellis - I used the link you provided in the original posting and read the comments.
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
SSG Michael Patton - I checked with her, Joanna Gull's, response and she didn't have a link to her comment for this information. Will do some research later on today with KVOA, who originally reported it, and see if there were any changes, Thanks again!
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SSG Michael Patton
SSG Michael Patton
9 y
I assumed, due to her surname, that she is related to the couple in the article and had additional insight. I know what assuming does, however. If you do find out more please update us all.
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TSgt Aaron D.
TSgt Aaron D.
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For some reason I can't find out any information on the Joanna Gulli being a part of the justice system. Can you please find a reliable source other than hearsay?
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MAJ Security Cooperation Planner
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Edited 9 y ago
Under the USFSPA, the local judge is not allowed to give the non-military spouse less than what the DFAS formula comes up with. If you are wondering, the formula is A/B*50% where:
A = # months married while in service
B = # of months credited for retirement

If A>120 months the spouse files directly with DFAS for direct payment and doesn't even need the court.

Biggest crock of shit in the world.
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Do you think it is fair that a woman be required to pay half of her military retirement to an ex-husband convicted of child molestation?
Cpl Robert Masi
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I think women are going to have a hard time getting sympathy from most men. Simply because of the ways the laws are.
When divorce occurs, women can take your kids, use them against you, and take all your money and everything you've worked for........Whatever the circumstances behind THIS particular matter, it doesn't matter. There are hundreds of thousands of circumstances where men have been brought to ruin because of divorce and the courts stealing from men and giving it to the wife.
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
Cpl Robert Masi I see your point...
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TSgt Aaron D.
TSgt Aaron D.
9 y
I see your point and the argument would be valid except for the elephant in the room, "The man watches kiddy porn and molested a teenager."
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Cpl Robert Masi
Cpl Robert Masi
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Yes, I don't agree with who he is as a person, but that's a distraction from the issue. I don't care about his personal proclivities here because it has no bearing on this matter.
The focus is that, for whatever reason, the judge decided she has to pay alimony. And I can bet that if the roles were reversed where she was in jail for being a Serial Killer and her husband had to pay alimony, I can bet you would have never heard of it.
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MSG John Delmonico
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Let's see, I came back from Iraq, wife was having an affair, we got divorced and I have been paying 48.9 % of every check for the past 8 years. Complete BS...Maybe now that women make a career out of the military, people will start listening how jacked up this law really is....I worked hard fory retirement, my ex does not deserve 1/2 of anything!
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LTC Michael Murphy
LTC Michael Murphy
9 y
Dude! Looking good! How's life been treating you?
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MSG John Delmonico
MSG John Delmonico
9 y
Hello Sir,
Might be in Colonial Heights next week for a Data management IPT....I will look you up if that would be ok....
I will keep you posted.
John
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1SG Harold Piet
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Sad as it is, she is suffering as many men have over the years. His legal troubles and his divorce is two different court issues and probably will not effect each other. She needs a good lawyer. But in today's world with the crazy rights of the the criminals there is no telling how it will turn out. I can just say welcome to a mans world.
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TSgt Wanda Nagy
TSgt Wanda Nagy
9 y
My ex and I divorced after 16 yrs of marriage. We put in our divorce decree that neither of us can claim each others retirement. I retired TSgt he retired MSgt. I earned mine and he earned his.
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LTC Instructor
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Federal law does not control family law (including marriage and divorce). Before people get uppity, Obergefell was not a family law case, it was a constitutional Fourteenth Amendment case, and that Amendment trumps State law by design.

This is a "victory" for anyone opposed to so-called judicial activism.

Is this justice? What powers would you have the courts invoke to do justice in this case where the legislature has spoken so clearly?
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
LTC (Join to see) Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. (2015), is a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held in a 5–4 decision that the fundamental right to marry is guaranteed to same-sex couples by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.... Could you clarify a bit more for our readers the application of this case to the post?
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LTC Instructor
LTC (Join to see)
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MSgt Curtis Ellis, my remark was aimed at the misconception that the Obergefell case is an instance of the federal government getting involved in the law of marriage. While the decision necessarily affects all would-be same sex spouses, it was not a decision made on the basis of federal family law or federal marriage law (neither of which exist).

My overall point is that a great deal of people want less "judicial activism" like we supposedly saw in Obergefell; i.e. the Judiciary getting involved in law-making. The alternative is exactly what you get in the pension funds case above. Either the courts have independent power to say what the law is and dispense justice within the confines of statutory and common law (i.e. some amount of judicial discretion), or the courts simply parrot the state or federal legislatures (which is useless). When the legislatures mandate (more or less) judicial outcomes (See mandatory minimum sentences and the pension dispensation guidelines above) we get strange outcomes, such as a convicted sex predator becoming entitled to half of his ex-spouses retirement monies. The court followed the strict letter of the legislature, but is it what we would consider "justice"?
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
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LTC (Join to see) - Ahhh... understood! Thank you for the clarification!
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LTC Michael Murphy
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I agree that it's crappy, but I don't recall a 'morals clause' in the act. IF there was one a WHOLE lot less spouses would be collecting half the veterans retirement.
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SCPO David Lockwood
SCPO David Lockwood
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Good point LTC Murphy!
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SPC Johnny Velazquez, PhD
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Why would this be fair? He committed the crime, and will be there for a long time. She, on the other hand, served her country. Why should she be punished for her commitment, and reward him for his crime?
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PVT Andrew Burd
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Better Call Saul! ...dammit.. that's New Mexico...
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SSG MLRS Automated Tactical Data Systems Specialist
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That's terrible. Hell naaw, she shouldn't have to give him half. He's locked up for life. What is he doing with the money anyway? He's...locked up. Give him 1%, for commissary, at BEST.
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SPC Transportation Router
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HELL NO!!!!
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
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MSgt Paul Bennetts
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My understanding is that even a retired member who commits a felony will have their retirement pension forfeited. How is this not the same. People need consequences for their actions
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LTC Michael Murphy
LTC Michael Murphy
9 y
Perhaps you are mistaken.
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Philpott_042205,00.html

LOSING RETIRED PAY
Does military retired pay stop once a retiree is incarcerated in prison for a felony conviction?
HENRY C.
Panama City, Fla.
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Military retirees are dropped from retirement rolls only when convicted for national security violations under the Hiss Act (5 U.S. Code, Section 8311-8322.) More routine felony convictions typically are not cause for loss of retired pay, say Defense pay experts.

If a service member receives a courts martial conviction, the punishment might include separation without retirement if the member is not yet retired. However, once retired, most criminal convictions outside the military are not cause for termination or suspension of retired pay. Each situation is unique, however.

As originally enacted in 1954, the Hiss Act included a long list of criminal offenses for which military retired pay could be lost. The law was amended in 1961 and limited retired pay losses to crimes of national security.
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LCDR Vice President
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You hear people mislead the military all the time on this subject. I am divorced, well was I just got remarried in 2013, had custody and raised three children while on active duty. My ex gets nothing, she paid me child support for years, I have 100% of my retirement and never gave her a dime of anything.
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CPT Field Artillery Officer
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9 y
But how long were you married Sir?
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
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LCDR (Join to see) I should have gotten your lawyer! :)
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LCDR Vice President
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LCDR Vice President
LCDR (Join to see)
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A lot of Lawyers will tell you that you have to give it up because it is accepted as common property. But there are cases where the common property law can be overruled. I think this would be one.
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SCPO David Lockwood
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I think that if a spouse is convicted of a felony they automatically give up that entitlement.
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
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LTC Michael Murphy
LTC Michael Murphy
9 y
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Philpott_042205,00.html

LOSING RETIRED PAY
Does military retired pay stop once a retiree is incarcerated in prison for a felony conviction?
HENRY C.
Panama City, Fla.
---
Military retirees are dropped from retirement rolls only when convicted for national security violations under the Hiss Act (5 U.S. Code, Section 8311-8322.) More routine felony convictions typically are not cause for loss of retired pay, say Defense pay experts.

If a service member receives a courts martial conviction, the punishment might include separation without retirement if the member is not yet retired. However, once retired, most criminal convictions outside the military are not cause for termination or suspension of retired pay. Each situation is unique, however.

As originally enacted in 1954, the Hiss Act included a long list of criminal offenses for which military retired pay could be lost. The law was amended in 1961 and limited retired pay losses to crimes of national security.

–- T.P.
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SSG John Erny
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Hmmm, where is Bubba when you need him? Just sayin'
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SFC Mark Merino
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For a red state, AZ is a hatchet man state for veterans. I got divorced here and it was a nightmare. I pay $1650 a month to a woman who's only ailment that keeps her from working is her sense of entitlement. 100% combat disabled and on my umpteenth surgery trying to survive on disability and the judge says, and I quote, "I know your pay isn't subject to garnishment. I'm not garnishing it. I'm saying that if you don't pay what I tell you, you will find yourself in jail." Pinal County is like a corrupt town from the movie 'Roadhouse.' The Sherriff and the Judge are actual brothers. No problem there, right?
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MSgt Curtis Ellis
MSgt Curtis Ellis
9 y
SFC Mark Merino I hear ya, my ex gets just as much, but decided to keep my mouth shut about my P&C for my disabilities...
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SSG Gene Carroll SR.
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SSG Warren Swan
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I got my divorce in OK, and was faced with paying my ex a pro rated amount of money for the rest of her life even though I hadn't made it to 20, she hadn't been married to me for 10 years, and we had been separated longer than we were together. So this while vile and very unfair I could see happening.
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SGT Andrew Chapman
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Maybe I am being naive on this but why wouldn't a convicted felon not lose his rights on this subject?
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PFC Greg Ortiz
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Unfortunately that is the law. The only way to fix this is for the state legislature to address this issue. I hope the state of Arizona fixes this.
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