Posted on May 24, 2014
Do you believe the Bill of Rights is outdated and should be either dropped in its entirety or at least rewritten?
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My Goddaughter seems to be very representative of many people in her generation in believing that the Second Amendment is totally outdated and needs to be eliminated. As with many on the left, she feels that no individual has any need for a handgun.
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 241
CMDCM Gene Treants
Unfortunately it often depends on the makeup of the Supreme Court of the United States AND who appointed which members. In a perfect world the Supremes would be non-political. ;-)
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The idea that the bill of rights is "outdated" is as sheepish as it is moronic. The point of this country, in my own humble opinion, is that no one else can "decide" what I have a need for. It is a ridiculous idea that simply because one group of people thinks another group doesn't need the guns, that the other group should be disarmed. Next comes communism. Slipery slope logic, I know. However, that is what it will devolve into if you allow the american people to be disarmed. It starts with guns, then moves to taking away knives, clubs, and anything that could be used as a weapon. Then we are nothing but mindless lambs for the slaughter of what was once the greatest nation on the planet.
Someone needs a throatpunch, and its the sheeple of the millennial generation.
Someone needs a throatpunch, and its the sheeple of the millennial generation.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Most of them have had everything handed to them and have not had to work for much of anything. as a result, they feel entitled and do not believe in anything
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Not only do I think we need to leave the Bill of Rights as is, I believe any elected or appointed public official who seeks to violated it should automatically be disqualified to serve and be removed from the position they are serving in.
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It's a good thing I'm not in or near a medical facility right now. They would have me restrained and sedated for extreme high blood pressure and emotional disturbance. My southern Christian upbringing and my respect for you and your service restrains my remarking upon your Goddaughters beliefs. I will leave it at that. God Bless the USA!
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CMDCM Gene Treants
One of the good things about the Constitution PO3 John Jeter, is the built in ability to allow discussion and compromise.
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PO3 John Jeter
MCPO Treants, My response was a bit facetious, but also serious. I welcome and enjoy the discussions but I am passionate about my convictions. I tend to get annoyed at the younger generation who really don't appreciate the consequences of changing the foundation of our system of govt. I am not opposed to change, but it must be carefully and thoroughly considered beforehand. Changing the Bill of Rights would have a tremendous impact on this country and so must be carefully considered.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
With the current makeup of our Congress, I cannot see any chance of making any progress in changing the Constitution in any way. They cannot agree on anything simple, let alone something serious. As for the rest of the country, chaos, utter chaos when it comes to making a decision.
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It looks like four down votes the question...not sure why, maybe they could explain?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
One said it was a mistake, yet did not retract. The other 3 had reasons and explained somewhere in the thread, but i do not remember now. This has been a much livelier discussion than I first expected and I have explained a lot of the answers and comments to my Goddaughter.
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The Bill of Rights was actually very well written. The Founders took great care to write everything so as to remain relevant and applicable for as long as they could manage. And a lot of people don't realize that the Bill of Rights does not GRANT rights, but rather RECOGNIZES them. If something is granted to you by the government, its not a right, its a privilege. The whole point of the Bill of Rights is to recognize and protect the people's natural rights, basically to tell government that these are untouchable so shut up and go away.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Actually the BOR does not so much recognize our rights as protect them from (Federal) Government interference. I am very happy that some of our Founders did not trust that the Federal Government would always be benevolent.
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SGT (Join to see)
I think it was more along the lines that the Founders recognized government was and is a necessary evil, and that's why it needs to be limited
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DISCLAIMER: I'm posting this without reading ANY other comments and posts, so it's five-months late, unfiltered by others' comments, untempered and straight-up. Sorry for the duplication and redundancies.
First... anyone who downvotes SOLELY because a question is asked needs an "old-school" Chicago Tune Up. Asking a question is NEVER to be discouraged. EVER!!!
Second... Bill of Rights Primer: The Bill of Rights GRANTS NOTHING!!!! It codifies the the rights INHERENT TO ALL MANKIND (slavery interpretation notwithstanding...) as specified in the Declaration of Independence. These 10 amendments were forced upon the original designers of the Constitution by anti-federalists (anti-government types, one could say) who won the argument that since these RESTRICTIONS ON GOVERNMENT were not specifically placed on the federal government, it was possible that a future government COULD restrict these activities/rights. Time has shown those "anti-government nut jobs" to be exactly correct.
Third... The First Amendment (like all the others in the Bill of Rights) DENIES THE GOVERNMENT THE POWER TO RESTRICT THE SPECIFIED PERSONAL ACTIVITIES. Since the protected activities in the first amendment are inherent to all persons, endowed by their Creator (God or Nature... doesn't matter), they can't be infringed upon by any government at any time, regardless of how gentle we think the government is/has become.
Fourth... The Second Amendment was placed into the mix by people who were ENGAGED IN A WAR AGAINST TYRANNY as a REMINDER and a WARNING that only the PEOPLE can decide whether or not their rights - as specified in the First Amendment - are being threatened.
Fifth... Naw. That's enough. If you can't get past the "but why?" purposes of the first two amendments in the context of limitations on government power, you have NO CHANCE of grasping the rest.
Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. You'll understand the concepts and those concepts HAVEN'T CHANGED ONE BIT, regardless of how "advanced" we think we've become as a society.
Thus endeth the lesson...
First... anyone who downvotes SOLELY because a question is asked needs an "old-school" Chicago Tune Up. Asking a question is NEVER to be discouraged. EVER!!!
Second... Bill of Rights Primer: The Bill of Rights GRANTS NOTHING!!!! It codifies the the rights INHERENT TO ALL MANKIND (slavery interpretation notwithstanding...) as specified in the Declaration of Independence. These 10 amendments were forced upon the original designers of the Constitution by anti-federalists (anti-government types, one could say) who won the argument that since these RESTRICTIONS ON GOVERNMENT were not specifically placed on the federal government, it was possible that a future government COULD restrict these activities/rights. Time has shown those "anti-government nut jobs" to be exactly correct.
Third... The First Amendment (like all the others in the Bill of Rights) DENIES THE GOVERNMENT THE POWER TO RESTRICT THE SPECIFIED PERSONAL ACTIVITIES. Since the protected activities in the first amendment are inherent to all persons, endowed by their Creator (God or Nature... doesn't matter), they can't be infringed upon by any government at any time, regardless of how gentle we think the government is/has become.
Fourth... The Second Amendment was placed into the mix by people who were ENGAGED IN A WAR AGAINST TYRANNY as a REMINDER and a WARNING that only the PEOPLE can decide whether or not their rights - as specified in the First Amendment - are being threatened.
Fifth... Naw. That's enough. If you can't get past the "but why?" purposes of the first two amendments in the context of limitations on government power, you have NO CHANCE of grasping the rest.
Read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. You'll understand the concepts and those concepts HAVEN'T CHANGED ONE BIT, regardless of how "advanced" we think we've become as a society.
Thus endeth the lesson...
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Very valid points PO2 Steven Erickson. I have copies of all of the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers if anyone wants to read them.
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You have to be kidding right? The constitution and the Bill of Rights are there to protect the minority against the Mob. It is obvious that your history teachers were out of Columbia or Berkley! This is at the very least treasonable to be evening thinking of litigating the tenets of the foundations of the Rules of Laws that separate us from every other banana republic. Dropping the first and second amendments are akin to the grabbing of every other right. It keeps the legislators in check and opens the door for actual debate and reason, but when you take away freedom of speech like they did in old century Europe one was subject to the King. John Locke and others thought to challenge the legitimacy of the Kings Rule by finding legitimacy in the voice of the people being so represented. Have you actually read the constitution to think you want to go back to such a archaic debate?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Good Heavens MSgt Brian Donnelly have you even read any of my responses to questions on this thread? I went to such liberal schools as High Point College (Quaker), Southern Illinois, U of Hawaii (there it is), and graduated from UNC-G. Although I do tend to be a Moderate in my Politics, I am no longer a Republican but think the Veterans Party of America (believe in supporting the Constitution) may be the way to go. So, please go back and read some of my responses to this thread before you label me as a Liberal.
Asking a thought provoking question is good for stimulating thought and awakening people stuck in complacency. Or would you rather think about if a 2nd Lt should Salute a 1st Lt, like so many seem to think is important?
Asking a thought provoking question is good for stimulating thought and awakening people stuck in complacency. Or would you rather think about if a 2nd Lt should Salute a 1st Lt, like so many seem to think is important?
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I choose leave it as is but I do feel we need to take an honest look at the Constitution as a whole. In my opinion we did a great job as the world's first modern democracy and our Constitution and Republic have many great aspects. However, to say that our Constitution is still the best today is like saying that the Model T is still the best car. Times have changed both domestically and internationally and our government/constitution has not kept up. As far as I know we are the only modern nation-state to not completely overhaul our government and constitution in the last 100 years or so (Great Britain might be in there too but I don't think they even have a written constitution). As far as the 2nd Amendment goes, keep it. If we overhaul the whole thing, make it much more clear about its purpose - to resist tyrannical government.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Although I concur in principle, I fear that our splintered society will be unable to come to consensus and make constructive changes to our Constitution today. As for the 2nd, there is so much controversy about its meaning, we will never get consensus on a new version; look at the differences in interpretation Chicago and Florida or Texas for example.
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SGT James Elphick
Unfortunately I believe you are absolutely correct. Without some unifying force that will bring all parties at least to the table to talk I fear things will continue to decline.
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CMDCM Gene Treants Master Chief, I don't think that your poll encompassed the complexity of the question. The good thing about the Constitution and it's amendment process is that each of the so-called bills of the Bill of Rights stand alone in and of themselves. The first 10 amendments--colloquially referred to as the Bill of Rights--retain that titles mostly honorarily; in fact, the actual piece of paper that the National Archives possesses has 12 articles on them--10 of which were adopted in the 1780s, one of which wasn't adopted until the 1990s, and another that was not adopted at all--and the one's that are now a part of the Constitution appear in a different order than we know them today.
Now, with all of that said, I don't see how you can suggest that the First Amendment discriminates against atheists and agnostics. The article reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment on religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Meaning, that the gov't cannot make an official religion, nor tell you which one you can or cannot practice--if you choose to do so at all. There is something to be said that historically, atheists and agnostics were socially marginalized, and in some places in the country and in a number of ways, some might say that they are. But really, from a governing and political perspective, it's religious people who are actually pushed out more frequently, and in the social spectrum, too, religious people are being pushed out.
As for the Second Amendment, it's incredibly difficult to discern what the Founders meant regarding gun ownership. Fortunately, that's not actually the question at hand in front of the Supreme Court, ever. They evaluate the law and make their rulings based on that. Does the Second Amendment need to be changed to allow for more effective gun control? I would say "yes." My reason is more long winded than I have even been so far, but suffice it to say, I am of the mind that law enforcement is capable of stopping a certain amount of gun crime if there were better legal avenues for them to do so--avenues which are currently blocked by the current wording of the Constitution.
Now, with all of that said, I don't see how you can suggest that the First Amendment discriminates against atheists and agnostics. The article reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment on religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Meaning, that the gov't cannot make an official religion, nor tell you which one you can or cannot practice--if you choose to do so at all. There is something to be said that historically, atheists and agnostics were socially marginalized, and in some places in the country and in a number of ways, some might say that they are. But really, from a governing and political perspective, it's religious people who are actually pushed out more frequently, and in the social spectrum, too, religious people are being pushed out.
As for the Second Amendment, it's incredibly difficult to discern what the Founders meant regarding gun ownership. Fortunately, that's not actually the question at hand in front of the Supreme Court, ever. They evaluate the law and make their rulings based on that. Does the Second Amendment need to be changed to allow for more effective gun control? I would say "yes." My reason is more long winded than I have even been so far, but suffice it to say, I am of the mind that law enforcement is capable of stopping a certain amount of gun crime if there were better legal avenues for them to do so--avenues which are currently blocked by the current wording of the Constitution.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Yes, PO1 Michael G. it is "a well regulated militia," and every member was expected to bring his own arm(s) with him when her reported for duty. Some pieces might be held in common or even supplied by the town/community, but on the whole, arms belonged to the individuals, not the units.
The 1st reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The first part of the sentence up to the semicolon is all that is said about "religion" and many have said that this was never intended to protect non-religion. That was my point, not that I agree with it. I believe that this clause strictly prohibits the Federal Government from adopting a State Religion, like the Church of England, that many of the founders or their ancestors had run from. CoE, Catholic Church, Lutheran Church, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religion was Prohibited from being the "official" religion of the United States. IMHO
The 1st reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The first part of the sentence up to the semicolon is all that is said about "religion" and many have said that this was never intended to protect non-religion. That was my point, not that I agree with it. I believe that this clause strictly prohibits the Federal Government from adopting a State Religion, like the Church of England, that many of the founders or their ancestors had run from. CoE, Catholic Church, Lutheran Church, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religion was Prohibited from being the "official" religion of the United States. IMHO
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Cpl Dennis F.
PO1 Michael G. (Well regulated militia) ....the definition of the day for "regulated" was "properly functioning or operating" not controlled as some would have you believe.
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PO1 Michael G.
CMDCM Gene Treants So, with the Second Amendment, we've gotten to the point where judges take over, and the question has come full circle. The whole amendment reads, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." We don't talk like that or write like that any more, and someone without a legal education or a fairly advanced linguistics education would be hard pressed to dissect that sentence. So, what it comes down to is our understanding of what the English language really means. What was "intended" by the Congress over 200 years ago is fairly irrelevant: the law is written in ink. With that said, Cpl Dennis F. brings up a good point, the vernacular changes over time, and therefore, our understanding of law changes. So, we look for context clues in the text to tell us which definition we are meant to use (as an example, I remember a high school English teacher making this point by telling us that the word 'run' has 54 definitions and that the only way to know what the word means in a given sentence is to read the context clues). Those context clues, however, can *only* (this cannot be stressed enough) come from the actual legal text at hand, or any of its superseding statues; since this is an article of the Constitution, there isn't a statue that to supersede it, and because it is it's own article, that single sentence at hand is the only context available to jurists. Ultimately, I do not think that the Second Amendment is clear enough in its present form to address modern gun control. Current statues pursuant to the Second Amendment are in legal standing with the Constitution, but I do believe that it ought to be amended to be less ambiguous.
By and large, Master Chief, I think that we agree on the First Amendment, and I'm not going to beat that dead horse.
Also, for some fun about Constitutional punctuation, Google "Takings clause comma." It really pokes some holes in whether the exact letter (and comma!) of the law is an inviolable as we're comfortable thinking.
By and large, Master Chief, I think that we agree on the First Amendment, and I'm not going to beat that dead horse.
Also, for some fun about Constitutional punctuation, Google "Takings clause comma." It really pokes some holes in whether the exact letter (and comma!) of the law is an inviolable as we're comfortable thinking.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
PO1 Michael G. Coma, semicoma, and colon what will they all mean 200 years from now and will they even still be used? I sure do not know - but loved looking that the Taking Clause. Thanks.
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