Posted on May 24, 2014
Do you believe the Bill of Rights is outdated and should be either dropped in its entirety or at least rewritten?
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My Goddaughter seems to be very representative of many people in her generation in believing that the Second Amendment is totally outdated and needs to be eliminated. As with many on the left, she feels that no individual has any need for a handgun.
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 241
Should we slap our forefathers in the face? No sir.
We should however, slap "this entitled generation" on the butt. That ought to fix a few problems :)
Just curious, but who are the parents of "this entitled generation"?
We should however, slap "this entitled generation" on the butt. That ought to fix a few problems :)
Just curious, but who are the parents of "this entitled generation"?
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PO3 Tony Jimenez
I do not believe that guns are dangerous, the people behind the gun is what's dangerous. I believe that we as veterans gave up a lot for this country others even more . If throw the blood of some teachers and 26 kids that were killed in sandy hook than I'll throw the blood of the 7-8000 sailors and soldiers that have given their life selflessly for what believe in !
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SrA Greg Hardin
The FBI just came out 1/5/15 and said sandy hook school shooting was a complete hoax or false flag attack and they said no one was hurt. look it up and read about it.
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Capt Walter Miller
Claim: The FBI has revealed that no murders occurred in Newtown, Connecticut in 2012, inadvertently admitting that the Sandy Hook massacre was an elaborate hoax.
image: http://www.snopes.com/images/content-divider.gif
image: http://www.snopes.com/images/red.gif
FALSE
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/info/news/sandyhoax.asp#1fZuPpdhLGZ6iA1E.99
image: http://www.snopes.com/images/content-divider.gif
image: http://www.snopes.com/images/red.gif
FALSE
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/info/news/sandyhoax.asp#1fZuPpdhLGZ6iA1E.99
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GySgt William Hardy
Woodrow Wilson, America’s 28th president, rejected the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution’s system of the separation of powers. This philosophy is known as Progressivism.
This was followed by Progressives like Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Barrack Obama, and of course. Hillary Clinton.
Think about it. Progressives reject the principles of the Declaration of Independence the US Constitution's system of the separation of powers. Progressive are Socialists. Presidents like Obama tried to put more weight on the UN and used many different measures as a means of limiting our right to bear arms. Woodrow Wilson was doing the same. Progressives would have us surrender our autonomy.
No, The Declaration of Independence is an outstanding piece of commentary. The US Constitution is fine as it is with all the Amendments.
It is absolutely amazing just how smart our Forefather were in writing that those documents. After all those years, we were once again reminded of the Electoral College and the balancing of votes between big and little states.
This was followed by Progressives like Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, Barrack Obama, and of course. Hillary Clinton.
Think about it. Progressives reject the principles of the Declaration of Independence the US Constitution's system of the separation of powers. Progressive are Socialists. Presidents like Obama tried to put more weight on the UN and used many different measures as a means of limiting our right to bear arms. Woodrow Wilson was doing the same. Progressives would have us surrender our autonomy.
No, The Declaration of Independence is an outstanding piece of commentary. The US Constitution is fine as it is with all the Amendments.
It is absolutely amazing just how smart our Forefather were in writing that those documents. After all those years, we were once again reminded of the Electoral College and the balancing of votes between big and little states.
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This country was founded on Christian principles. Quite frankly, I'm tired and disgusted of having curb my opinion, accept things against my faith, and not expressing myself through my faith all in the name of political correctness and accommodating others and their beliefs. The freedom of religion means you can practice any belief you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody (virgin sacrifices and such). It doesn't mean if you don't like someone else's beliefs and the way they practice it (prayer in schools, meetings, and events and the like) you get to squelch it. I can't kick a Muslim if he puts a mat on the sidewalk and prays to the east in the middle of foot traffic. I don't get repulsed if I see a Minorrah (sp?) in a store window or a made up Kwanza candle holder on public display.
As for guns, it will always be, if you take away guns from the people, only criminals will have guns.
As for guns, it will always be, if you take away guns from the people, only criminals will have guns.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
I agree. I've found in my many travels around the whole country as a consultant is that Tolerance has mutated into Required Acceptance.
In other words, "You MUST ACCEPT that what I think and believe is as right as what you think and believe."
Tolerance is NOT approval. It is allowing you to think and believe as you feel is right without repercussions.
In other words, "You MUST ACCEPT that what I think and believe is as right as what you think and believe."
Tolerance is NOT approval. It is allowing you to think and believe as you feel is right without repercussions.
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SGT (Join to see)
Likewise I'm tired of having Christian principles shoved down my throat because they think the Bible should dictate law for a diverse nation. It goes both ways.
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SSgt Randy Saulsberry
Tired of hearing Christians cry that they are somehow being oppressed. Prayer not allowed in schools, c'mon, it's school led prayer that's not allowed. Our laws state that the government can't endorse any religion. Guess what most schools are, they are public schools which means they are funded by the government, hence school led prayer not being allowed. Quit misrepresenting the topic. You can't kick anyone on the sidewalk. Religious symbols in windows are in the windows of privately owned businesses so that is allowed. Religious symbols or displays on public grounds is not allowed unless equal space is afforded for all other religious beliefs. Public grounds are owned by the government, so it's all religious beliefs or none are allowed.
But Christians don't want it all to be equal because the moment a satanist group wants to put up a display along side theirs in a public setting every Christian will try to have that display taken down.
So be real with yourselves. Tall don't care about equality because if you did your post would have at least had one example of suppression of Christianity.
But Christians don't want it all to be equal because the moment a satanist group wants to put up a display along side theirs in a public setting every Christian will try to have that display taken down.
So be real with yourselves. Tall don't care about equality because if you did your post would have at least had one example of suppression of Christianity.
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Master Chief, the Bill of Rights is fine just as it is.
The problem with those who believe that the people should be deprived of their inalienable right to possess firearms have a tentative grasp of our national history and the current facts regarding their use in modern America.
We didn't shout the British off the continent. We took up arms (the arms we had on hand possessed legally)and fought for the better part of a decade to establish the greatest nation on the planet. The militias were formed by people who brought their own weapons to the fight. The Founding Fathers understood that, and included a prohibition against the government taking our weapons from us. It was intended to protect us from our own government's potential for excesses (given some of our government's recent choices, any cable news channel might enlighten the uninformed with regard to the type of behavior our Founding Fathers feared).
Dictators first seek to eliminate any method by which their detractors would oppose them, and then to regulate the media. Prevent people from protecting themselves and then provide them only the information that you want them to hear. History clearly shows that repeatedly. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
With regard to current use of weapons by armed citizens; lawfully armed citizens intervene to protect themselves and their neighbors far more often than professional law enforcement officers do. Cities with the most strict gun laws also have the highest violent crime. (see Chicago, Washington DC, etc.). A quick review of Department of Justice statistics for decades shows that. I have worked my entire adult life in law enforcement, and can attest to that fact from multiple personal experiences. The police can't be everywhere (and we as a society wouldn't want them to be) so the result is that legally armed citizens take action when needed preventing or stopping crimes more frequently.
As to the question of the First Amendment; the provisions included protect those who don't have a particular theology as well as those who practice their faith with great passion. A careful reading of the amendment's verbiage shows that it protects everybody's right to practice their religion or none at all without interference from the government. There is nothing that discriminates against any particular section of the public by enforcing a specific ideology upon them.
I would offer (and I'm reasonably certain you already have) to your Goddaughter that she might study history and current facts more closely before making a decision or formulating an opinion.
Open respectful discussions should be the norm; not feared for the number of down votes one receives for raising controversial issues. The mature, open, and nimble mind welcomes the opportunity to explore other points of view. BZ for bringing a worthy topic to the group for consideration.
The problem with those who believe that the people should be deprived of their inalienable right to possess firearms have a tentative grasp of our national history and the current facts regarding their use in modern America.
We didn't shout the British off the continent. We took up arms (the arms we had on hand possessed legally)and fought for the better part of a decade to establish the greatest nation on the planet. The militias were formed by people who brought their own weapons to the fight. The Founding Fathers understood that, and included a prohibition against the government taking our weapons from us. It was intended to protect us from our own government's potential for excesses (given some of our government's recent choices, any cable news channel might enlighten the uninformed with regard to the type of behavior our Founding Fathers feared).
Dictators first seek to eliminate any method by which their detractors would oppose them, and then to regulate the media. Prevent people from protecting themselves and then provide them only the information that you want them to hear. History clearly shows that repeatedly. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
With regard to current use of weapons by armed citizens; lawfully armed citizens intervene to protect themselves and their neighbors far more often than professional law enforcement officers do. Cities with the most strict gun laws also have the highest violent crime. (see Chicago, Washington DC, etc.). A quick review of Department of Justice statistics for decades shows that. I have worked my entire adult life in law enforcement, and can attest to that fact from multiple personal experiences. The police can't be everywhere (and we as a society wouldn't want them to be) so the result is that legally armed citizens take action when needed preventing or stopping crimes more frequently.
As to the question of the First Amendment; the provisions included protect those who don't have a particular theology as well as those who practice their faith with great passion. A careful reading of the amendment's verbiage shows that it protects everybody's right to practice their religion or none at all without interference from the government. There is nothing that discriminates against any particular section of the public by enforcing a specific ideology upon them.
I would offer (and I'm reasonably certain you already have) to your Goddaughter that she might study history and current facts more closely before making a decision or formulating an opinion.
Open respectful discussions should be the norm; not feared for the number of down votes one receives for raising controversial issues. The mature, open, and nimble mind welcomes the opportunity to explore other points of view. BZ for bringing a worthy topic to the group for consideration.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Master Chief, Well stated and this looks like the basis for a great editorial if you ever feel the need to write one. Thanks for your input. As usual it is insightful and well articulated.
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I don't believe we should have to change our foundation to fit the "new age" and what people think is "right" or "wrong", whatever the case may be.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I agree SFC (Join to see). The fundamentals of our nation are there and need to be respected. They have been proven to be good rules for our times as well as the past.
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What most people, or at least most who dislike guns are thinking, is that people don't require them to feed themselves anymore. That was not the point in the first place, we were not simply 'given arms' we were expected to form into Militias and defend the country against its government if necessary.
The right to bear arms was given to us, by the founding fathers, who knew very well, that giving power to some, can and often does create monsters of a sort. They sought for a way to assure themselves that Americans would not become helpless victims of tyrany... and I spelled that wrong, didn't I?
The Second Ammendment was written into the fabric of our country by men who knew what it felt like, to be helpless a time or two, and they wanted better for us.
Giving up one of our rights, would, in my view, lead to another and another. Harry Reid is already trying to float a bill that would take away our right to free speech, and several others have commented that there should be limits on our freedom of speech because most Americans are not intelligent enough to have that freedom.
If it comes to be, that we loose our Second Ammendment, it would be a very sad day for us all.
The right to bear arms was given to us, by the founding fathers, who knew very well, that giving power to some, can and often does create monsters of a sort. They sought for a way to assure themselves that Americans would not become helpless victims of tyrany... and I spelled that wrong, didn't I?
The Second Ammendment was written into the fabric of our country by men who knew what it felt like, to be helpless a time or two, and they wanted better for us.
Giving up one of our rights, would, in my view, lead to another and another. Harry Reid is already trying to float a bill that would take away our right to free speech, and several others have commented that there should be limits on our freedom of speech because most Americans are not intelligent enough to have that freedom.
If it comes to be, that we loose our Second Ammendment, it would be a very sad day for us all.
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LTC Paul Labrador
I would go further in that the 2nd Amendment was written by men who had to TAKE their independence, not sit back and hope it was given to them. They understood that in the end, it is the citizen of the nation who ultimately defends the nation.
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Cpl Glynis Sakowicz
SSGT Steigerwald, that is the best way, however I tend to believe that, with the government in charge of educating the children, and doing such a wonderful (?) job of it, and an even better job of educating the young adults in colleges, where they are taught all the great wonders of why America is horrible, then we haven't much of a chance to perfect our talks and our lessons on civil liberties.
Until we have the chance to actually get them to understand why such things are so important to America, we really haven't got a chance to curb the government when it comes to our liberties.
Until we have the chance to actually get them to understand why such things are so important to America, we really haven't got a chance to curb the government when it comes to our liberties.
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SrA Greg Hardin
Our founding fathers told us " if you give up the tools to ensure liberty, you are truly ruined"
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No individual has a need for a handgun. You can inhale and exhale just as fine with or without it. So in this, your God daughter is technically correct.
Where she is mistaken is when she confuses rights with needs. Rights are not needs-based subject to outside approval. Once a right can be interpreted as something that is needed or not, based on the interpretation of an individual or body, it ceases to be a right and becomes something else entirely.
So when confronted with the argument that no one "needs" a handgun, ask what they mean by need. Then ask who "needs" the internet? Who "needs to be able to speak?
The right for an individual to keep and bear arms is not subject to a determination of a need to do same. If it were, we could simply apply the same criteria to the other various rights.
One final thought. The Constitution does not exit to limit the rights of the People or the States. It exists to limit what powers the Federal Government may exercise.
Where she is mistaken is when she confuses rights with needs. Rights are not needs-based subject to outside approval. Once a right can be interpreted as something that is needed or not, based on the interpretation of an individual or body, it ceases to be a right and becomes something else entirely.
So when confronted with the argument that no one "needs" a handgun, ask what they mean by need. Then ask who "needs" the internet? Who "needs to be able to speak?
The right for an individual to keep and bear arms is not subject to a determination of a need to do same. If it were, we could simply apply the same criteria to the other various rights.
One final thought. The Constitution does not exit to limit the rights of the People or the States. It exists to limit what powers the Federal Government may exercise.
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SMSgt Lance Goeman
It's the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs. Nobody needs a flat screen, a car, a large house, etc that many of us either want or take for granted
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MAJ (Join to see)
You prove my point SMSgt Lance Goeman. You may not need any of those things you enumerated but no one stands in the way of you pursuing them. however, when you use a judgement of need as a means of determining freedom, you have abridged freedom.
The fundamental nature of a right is that it cannot be taken away based on outside judgement.
The fundamental nature of a right is that it cannot be taken away based on outside judgement.
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SrA (Join to see)
1Lt Steven Philpot I can't disagree more. If one has the freedom of religion then one inherently has the freedom from religion. I have the right to my religion, you have the right to yours, but if you start making laws based around your religion that interferes with my religion, who is in the wrong? My beliefs are just as important as yours. Your beliefs are just as important as mine. P.S. most references to "God" in our society (the pledge or our money) have been absent in our society longer than they have been in them. When the pledge was written no reference to god was included.
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The bill of rights was put in place to protect the citizens from oppression. It's not easy growing up in today's world for sure, but if they spent the time to think through and research why what eventually became the Bill of Rights is in place, it is just as applicable today as it was when written.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Master Chief, Do you really think our Politicians are that untrustworthy? Well, I agree with you they would change things for the sake of change and for the way they believe their party would benefit! Today's politicians are so divided, they have no concept of being Americans, just party members. Yes, they would yield to the pressures of any group willing to fund their party.
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LCDR Jeffery Dixon
The intention was to create an enduring framework for a Republic because the founding fathers rightfully feared Democracy where four wolves and a sheep talk about what is for lunch.
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CPT Richard Riley
The founding fathers knew it would be difficult to keep the freedoms they wrote in the Bill of Rights. We've seen the manifestations of that difficulty in our present times. Unfortunately, if is a combination of government overreach with the concentration of power, and 'the peoples' willingness to give up some freedom for security. We all acknowledge that never works out.
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CPT Richard Riley
LCDR Dixon, your reference to the Republic the founding fathers created is accurate, yet so many today misconstrue the meaning behind what a Republic is. The founding fathers believed that the supreme power should reside with the citizens of our Nation who are entitled to vote for officers & representatives whom would be directly responsible to the citizens. This form of Government avoids a monarch and the hierarchy that comes with it. A Republic is representative government ruled by law (the Constitution). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule). A Republic recognizes the inalienable rights of individuals while democracies are only concerned with group wants or needs (the public good).
Lawmaking is a slow, deliberate process in our Constitutional Republic requiring approval from the three branches of government, the Supreme Court and individual jurors (jury-nullification). Lawmaking in our unlawful democracy occurs rapidly requiring approval from the whim of the majority as determined by polls and/or voter referendums. Democracies are always self-destruct when the non-productive majority realizes that it can vote itself handouts from the productive minority by electing the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury. To maintain their power, these candidates must adopt an ever-increasing tax and spend policy to satisfy the ever-increasing desires of the majority. As taxes increase, incentive to produce decreases, causing many of the once productive to drop out and join the non-productive. When there are no longer enough producers to fund the legitimate functions of government and the socialist programs, the democracy will collapse, usually followed by a Dictatorship. I used as reference Alexander Fraser Tyler, Cycle of Democracy (1770)
DEMOCRACY:
• A government of the masses.
• Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
• Results in mobocracy.
• Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights.
• Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
• Results in demagoguism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
REPUBLIC:
• Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
• Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
• A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
• Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy.
• Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
• Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world?
Lawmaking is a slow, deliberate process in our Constitutional Republic requiring approval from the three branches of government, the Supreme Court and individual jurors (jury-nullification). Lawmaking in our unlawful democracy occurs rapidly requiring approval from the whim of the majority as determined by polls and/or voter referendums. Democracies are always self-destruct when the non-productive majority realizes that it can vote itself handouts from the productive minority by electing the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury. To maintain their power, these candidates must adopt an ever-increasing tax and spend policy to satisfy the ever-increasing desires of the majority. As taxes increase, incentive to produce decreases, causing many of the once productive to drop out and join the non-productive. When there are no longer enough producers to fund the legitimate functions of government and the socialist programs, the democracy will collapse, usually followed by a Dictatorship. I used as reference Alexander Fraser Tyler, Cycle of Democracy (1770)
DEMOCRACY:
• A government of the masses.
• Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
• Results in mobocracy.
• Attitude toward property is communistic--negating property rights.
• Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
• Results in demagoguism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
REPUBLIC:
• Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
• Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
• A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
• Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy.
• Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
• Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world?
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I just found a perfect way to explain this subject so that even my Goddaughter and her ultra liberal friends might understand it.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Many of us think the IRS may have already abolished it for the middle class. Seriously - I fully agree that if ANY of the first 10 go all of the others are in jeopardy.
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SGT James Korman
Tragically, all governments die of a sclerotic impulse of security in its bureaucracy. Also, the life expectancy of a Democracy is 200 years. Since historians generally agree that ours began in 1828 under Andrew Jackson, we have about 14 years remaining. All democracies degenerate into tyranny it is safe to assume that we are already there. The dike of the first ten amendments is constantly under attack, given the degradation in the education in the past 50 years it is likely they to will fall to the 'Living Constitution' false rubic.
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SrA (Join to see)
Slippery slope is a logical fallacy and doesn't address the problem presented. It only hypothesizes on a an outcome that can not be proven. Slippery Slope is a bad argument. Besides, I don't think anyone is saying to remove an amendment but modify or clarify said amendments.
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Leave as is.
Elimination of the bill of rights would destroy this country.
Elimination of the bill of rights would destroy this country.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I am not sure it would destroy the country, but it might start a Civil War that makes the one in 1861 look like a riot at Wally World on the Day after Thanksgiving.
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Nothing wrong with asking the question. Although I would submit that your Goddaughter is not as representative of that generation as you think...just better at verbalizing her disagreement to others.
The Constitution or portions of it are just as important today as it was during its inception while our country was in its infancy in 1787. What document could be more crucial to our way of life than one which enshrines our individual rights and liberties? Why would the importance of these freedoms lessen with time? I would counter that in today's age of terrorist threats being answered with far reaching legislation such as the Patriot Act, Constitutional protections have never been more important than they are now.
What many young people today don't seem to understand is that Constitutional protections are not open to selective interpretation, or political stamps of approval. They do not shift with the populist winds of change. I have just as much of a right to practice or publicly espouse my belief in Christianity as a Wiccan or Satanist. My personal feelings on someone else exercising their Constitutionally protected rights are entirely irrelevant.
If I were you, I would take the opportunity to encourage some critical thinking here. I would ask your Goddaughter some detailed questions about why she feels the way she does. Has she studied the Founding Father's intent? Did she arrive at this conclusion based on her own research, or has she been indoctrinated into this mindset by a biased educational institution or political entity? I would also ask her what the 2nd and 3rd order effects are from removing 1st and 2nd amendment constitutional protections? Too often these days, we don't encourage young people to do the research and come to their own conclusions. If she still believes this, and you determine this belief isn't based on something like emotion, or biased influences within education institutions, then I would respect it.
As far as the comment about 1st and 2nd amendments being used as an "excuse to do wrong", I would emphasize that the Bill of Rights does not protect lawbreakers. It does however protect the right of dissent, so long as that dissent does not result in the commission of a crime. Unfortunately, politicians are famous for using tragedy, emotion, and a criminal's disregard for the law as a means to achieve a political end.
The Constitution or portions of it are just as important today as it was during its inception while our country was in its infancy in 1787. What document could be more crucial to our way of life than one which enshrines our individual rights and liberties? Why would the importance of these freedoms lessen with time? I would counter that in today's age of terrorist threats being answered with far reaching legislation such as the Patriot Act, Constitutional protections have never been more important than they are now.
What many young people today don't seem to understand is that Constitutional protections are not open to selective interpretation, or political stamps of approval. They do not shift with the populist winds of change. I have just as much of a right to practice or publicly espouse my belief in Christianity as a Wiccan or Satanist. My personal feelings on someone else exercising their Constitutionally protected rights are entirely irrelevant.
If I were you, I would take the opportunity to encourage some critical thinking here. I would ask your Goddaughter some detailed questions about why she feels the way she does. Has she studied the Founding Father's intent? Did she arrive at this conclusion based on her own research, or has she been indoctrinated into this mindset by a biased educational institution or political entity? I would also ask her what the 2nd and 3rd order effects are from removing 1st and 2nd amendment constitutional protections? Too often these days, we don't encourage young people to do the research and come to their own conclusions. If she still believes this, and you determine this belief isn't based on something like emotion, or biased influences within education institutions, then I would respect it.
As far as the comment about 1st and 2nd amendments being used as an "excuse to do wrong", I would emphasize that the Bill of Rights does not protect lawbreakers. It does however protect the right of dissent, so long as that dissent does not result in the commission of a crime. Unfortunately, politicians are famous for using tragedy, emotion, and a criminal's disregard for the law as a means to achieve a political end.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Concur Captain H. and I have asked her many of these same questions. Sometimes, you have to ask and hope you can get people to then stop and think. Hopefully her critical thinking will kick in and many of her generation will also see some sense.
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