Posted on May 24, 2014
Do you believe the Bill of Rights is outdated and should be either dropped in its entirety or at least rewritten?
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My Goddaughter seems to be very representative of many people in her generation in believing that the Second Amendment is totally outdated and needs to be eliminated. As with many on the left, she feels that no individual has any need for a handgun.
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Additionally, do we really need the First Amendment since one of its previsions deals with religion and seems to discriminate against atheists and agnostics?
So, how many down votes will I get for even posting a controversial question like this?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 241
First and foremost there is no way of eliminating the Bill of Rights, and here is why. We are a republic we are established by law not by popularity. The bill of rights is the enumeration of rights that is "endowed by our creator". In another words we already have them weather given to us by law or not. No vote, no executive order, not even Supreme Court, can take those away. All three branches of our government has tried in the past and failed.additionally how is it that you can have one or more of the following and not have to have all.
People that make statements like we need to change 1 through ten amendments have not read them they are simply ignorant of the document.
1st Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[
2nd A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
3rd No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
4th No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
5th No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6th In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.[69]
The Sixth Amendment establishes a number of rights of the defendant in a criminal trial:
• The right to a speedy and public trial
• The right to trial by an impartial jury
• The right to be informed of criminal charges
• The right to confront witnesses
• The right to compel witnesses to appear in court
• The right to assistance of counsel
7th In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
8th Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted
9th The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10th The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
People that make statements like we need to change 1 through ten amendments have not read them they are simply ignorant of the document.
1st Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[
2nd A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
3rd No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
4th No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
5th No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6th In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.[69]
The Sixth Amendment establishes a number of rights of the defendant in a criminal trial:
• The right to a speedy and public trial
• The right to trial by an impartial jury
• The right to be informed of criminal charges
• The right to confront witnesses
• The right to compel witnesses to appear in court
• The right to assistance of counsel
7th In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
8th Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted
9th The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10th The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
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CMDCM Gene Treants
The last 4 words of the 10th may be the most important. They are so often overlooked.
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No, I don't believe the Bill of Rights is outdated and should be dropped nor rewritten. The Second Amendment is not just about individual gun ownership, but talks about a militia being important for the security of a free state. This Amendment was written for protection against a tyrannical government.
The First Amendment says Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion. That means they can't form a national religion. It also says they can't prohibit the free expression of religion. I fail to see where this discriminates against atheists and agnostics since they, too, are free to practice whatever they believe. there is more, what about freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peacefully to assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances
The other eight Amendments cover important rights we are granted by the Constitution. Maybe your Goddaughter and her young friends should read the first ten Amendments and see which freedoms they would like to give up.
Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution have served us well until this current administration came in and began to try to destroy them.
The First Amendment says Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion. That means they can't form a national religion. It also says they can't prohibit the free expression of religion. I fail to see where this discriminates against atheists and agnostics since they, too, are free to practice whatever they believe. there is more, what about freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peacefully to assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances
The other eight Amendments cover important rights we are granted by the Constitution. Maybe your Goddaughter and her young friends should read the first ten Amendments and see which freedoms they would like to give up.
Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution have served us well until this current administration came in and began to try to destroy them.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Fully concur. I also believe our education system fails to fully explain the freedoms of our founding documents.
I also noticed that you feel people should not even question the validity of the Bill of Rights by your down vote. You do have the right to do that. It is a part of freedom of speech.
I also noticed that you feel people should not even question the validity of the Bill of Rights by your down vote. You do have the right to do that. It is a part of freedom of speech.
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The Bill of Rights was created out of a need to counter the increased power that would be held by the new National Government. These rights were designed & written because of a heightened mistrust of the National Government to protect the civil liberties of the people.
The idea of adding a Bill of Rights to the Constitution was not popular at the Constitutional Convention. When George Mason (Virginia) proposed that such a bill be added to the preface of the proposed Constitution, his resolution was unanimously defeated. Alexander Hamilton believed adding a Bill of Rights would be dangerous, stating 'Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?'
After the Convention James Madison became the prime author to draft the Bill of Rights.He was the author of the Virginia Plan that became the outline for the Constitution. The Bill of Rights grew out of a commitment to individual rights. There was a growing fear that a National Government could become oppressive, deprive people of their liberties, and tax them without recourse. Congress approved Madison's final draft of 12 Amendments and forwarded them to the States for ratification.
Madison had 200 amendments to work with originally. Once thought through, the Amendments focused on human liberty and rights. Of the 12 Amendments sent to the States two were rejected - one on congressional compensation and one covering representation. The remaining 10 Amendments were declared in force on 15Dec 1791.
It was not a smooth or easy journey, but realistic expectations then, and just as current now.
The idea of adding a Bill of Rights to the Constitution was not popular at the Constitutional Convention. When George Mason (Virginia) proposed that such a bill be added to the preface of the proposed Constitution, his resolution was unanimously defeated. Alexander Hamilton believed adding a Bill of Rights would be dangerous, stating 'Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?'
After the Convention James Madison became the prime author to draft the Bill of Rights.He was the author of the Virginia Plan that became the outline for the Constitution. The Bill of Rights grew out of a commitment to individual rights. There was a growing fear that a National Government could become oppressive, deprive people of their liberties, and tax them without recourse. Congress approved Madison's final draft of 12 Amendments and forwarded them to the States for ratification.
Madison had 200 amendments to work with originally. Once thought through, the Amendments focused on human liberty and rights. Of the 12 Amendments sent to the States two were rejected - one on congressional compensation and one covering representation. The remaining 10 Amendments were declared in force on 15Dec 1791.
It was not a smooth or easy journey, but realistic expectations then, and just as current now.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Thanks, a very nice history lesson. This shows the struggle the Founders had in considering the Limits on the Constitution.
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LCDR Jeffery Dixon
The US Government never endeavored to protect
civil liberties. Their only goal is to limit civil liberties and advance themselves at any cost.
civil liberties. Their only goal is to limit civil liberties and advance themselves at any cost.
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I see a lot of comments referencing the 2nd Amendment referring to "keeping the government in check" by allowing citizens to bear arms. My questions are:
What is the interpretation of "keeping the government in check", would that include the threat or execution of armed uprisings as we've seen recently in other countries?
If such an armed uprising occurred in the US and SMs get called in to quell the uprising, where would you stand given that you in uniform, may be forced take up arms against fellow citizens exercising their constitutional rights?
What is the interpretation of "keeping the government in check", would that include the threat or execution of armed uprisings as we've seen recently in other countries?
If such an armed uprising occurred in the US and SMs get called in to quell the uprising, where would you stand given that you in uniform, may be forced take up arms against fellow citizens exercising their constitutional rights?
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CMDCM Gene Treants
The Posse Comitatus Act should prevent the Federal Government from using DOD troops to quell an uprising of Citizens in the United States. I say should because a corrupt Federal Government is of course capable of ignoring law, as we have seen.
The National Guard is not subject to this, but may only be used within the State or a neighboring State at the invitation of that State's governor. Coast Guard is not part of the DOD , but part of Homeland Security and so not subject to this act.
The National Guard is not subject to this, but may only be used within the State or a neighboring State at the invitation of that State's governor. Coast Guard is not part of the DOD , but part of Homeland Security and so not subject to this act.
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
Great point on the PCA, MCPO Treants. The "what if" scenario I was thinking about was an occupational militia mob in DC surrounding the WH or Capitol where the FBI and its tactical units were maxed out - similar to recent world events. Something where all the stops may have to be pulled out to avoid the "catastrophe" of a coup. Fratricide and political suicide all rolled into one F-UGLY scenario with limited options
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Actually Major, given the events in ND, that may not be to far off of what could happen. Some of our Federal Organizations have become so embolden by the Patriot Act that they seem to feel above the law. Hopefully, PCA is well understood by all of our commanders in power in and around DC and other parts of the USA. We often discussed this in the Messes and Ward Rooms I was associated with.
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The Bill Of Rights, Is why I served in the Marine Corp. It was protecting our way of life.It stands for all the freedoms any person can have. It's what we want to do, when, and where we want to, without fear of reprisals from Our Elected Government Officials. We are not ruled by Dictators, Queens,Military Rennagades. We don't live in police control. The Right To Carry and Bear Arms in This Country is essential in the Strength of our Great Nation. Take that right away, and we open ourselves to Control by Others, who hate Our America.
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SSgt James Stanley
Sorry about the down vote. By the way the question was written I thought you were in agreement to do away with the First Amendment. I wish I could take it back. I guess I should have read all the comments before adding my two cents!.
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I certainly don't believe that civil rights are in any way outdated. Limiting of 2nd amendment rights all began with the fear of emancipation and former slaves owning firearms. Anti-civil rights firearm legislation was re-invigorated after the 1964 Civil Rights Act for some of the same reasons.
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MSG Mitch Dowler
There is a lot of information out there in regard to Jim Crow and gun control.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/mags/dark-secret-of-jim-crow.html
http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/gun-control-called-new-version-of-jim-crow/
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/mags/dark-secret-of-jim-crow.html
http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/gun-control-called-new-version-of-jim-crow/
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I find it absolutley amazing that our Founding Fathers came back together after the Constitution was written and decided that not enough emphasis was placed on our basic rights and added the Bill of Rights. They are just as important now as they were then. Many people do not know what they mean. Try reading the Federalist Papers where those men defined such terms as militia and made it clear what they meant from the very beginning.
People like your granddaughter do not have an appreciation for what it takes to keep a country free...free for them to express themselves. Free to do almost anything they want. Today's liberal left are actually thinking more like socialists everyday. The way we live would soon fall to the wayside if we were not allowed the freedom to speak against what we see as bad and to speak up for what we see as good. What the left does not understand is that the very freedom they enjoy to attack the right is protected by the freedoms they which to destroy. They would soon change their tune if they would just realize that simple concept. I often considered the order of the Bill of Rights. Freedom of Speech..to say or publish what we feel. The Right to Bear Arms...our Founding Fathers gave us the right to rebel if the government got out of hand. The left would take that away and make it so easy for socialist and communists to take over. Neither of those systems have work successfully anywhere in the world. Remember your oath..To protect the Constitution...I take that very seriously. Even though I am retired, no one ever relieved me of that oath. The oath also said..foreign and domestic... and if we are not careful, domestic may be coming sooner than we think...then those that oppose the Second Amendment will be eating crow.
People like your granddaughter do not have an appreciation for what it takes to keep a country free...free for them to express themselves. Free to do almost anything they want. Today's liberal left are actually thinking more like socialists everyday. The way we live would soon fall to the wayside if we were not allowed the freedom to speak against what we see as bad and to speak up for what we see as good. What the left does not understand is that the very freedom they enjoy to attack the right is protected by the freedoms they which to destroy. They would soon change their tune if they would just realize that simple concept. I often considered the order of the Bill of Rights. Freedom of Speech..to say or publish what we feel. The Right to Bear Arms...our Founding Fathers gave us the right to rebel if the government got out of hand. The left would take that away and make it so easy for socialist and communists to take over. Neither of those systems have work successfully anywhere in the world. Remember your oath..To protect the Constitution...I take that very seriously. Even though I am retired, no one ever relieved me of that oath. The oath also said..foreign and domestic... and if we are not careful, domestic may be coming sooner than we think...then those that oppose the Second Amendment will be eating crow.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
SFC Hardy, at times I wish my Goddaughter could read all of the responses to this thread. I am not sure she would take the time. That is the biggest problem with both the far Left and Right, they are inflexible. They have already made their minds up.
Everything you said is what i express and feel. Like you, I am retired and know I have never been relieved of that first oath, let alone all of the others I swore saying the same thing. I am also more concerned with the domestic today.
Everything you said is what i express and feel. Like you, I am retired and know I have never been relieved of that first oath, let alone all of the others I swore saying the same thing. I am also more concerned with the domestic today.
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GySgt William Hardy
I agree with what you said about taking time to read by BOTH the far left and right. They are stuck and will not budge. People who are truly free and are secure in their beliefs are not afraid to read or listen to what others have to say. I took a lot of heat in another political chat room because they assumed that I was ultra right. I am an independent with conservative leanings. I believe in the greatness of our Constitution and am thankful that I was born American. Sometimes it shocks me when I hear what comes out of the mouths of the far right, especially the far religious right. They do not seem to understand that they go so far right that they are actually stepping on the religious rights of others and they don't or won't see it.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
I used to be a Republican. Now I an also an Independent since I am more moderate than most of the members of that party. I also have conservative leanings, but am able to still see and understand both sides of most issues.
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The 2nd Amendment is fine. It doesn't need to be changed, it has been clarified via numerous court cases. What we need is regulation. EVERYTHING is regulated in our society, yet guns are less regulated than tobacco, alcohol, and automobiles. All four of those things kill people (Or can kill people anyway), so regulation is needed.
For me, I want background checks for all purchases. If someone has a history of violence, they may lose their right to own a firearm. Sometimes we need to protect our rights entirely and sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves. There is nothing wrong with a normal person owning a gun.... or hundreds of them. It's the small minority that poses a concern.
The First Amendment doesn't hurt atheists and agnostics, it helps them. It's the one Amendment that truly protects them (me/us). Clarification through precedence has made it even more protective over the years.
For me, I want background checks for all purchases. If someone has a history of violence, they may lose their right to own a firearm. Sometimes we need to protect our rights entirely and sometimes we need to protect ourselves from ourselves. There is nothing wrong with a normal person owning a gun.... or hundreds of them. It's the small minority that poses a concern.
The First Amendment doesn't hurt atheists and agnostics, it helps them. It's the one Amendment that truly protects them (me/us). Clarification through precedence has made it even more protective over the years.
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LTC Joseph Gross
CW2 Kantor is not keeping up on US news. There are plenty of regulations/laws which keep people from purchasing firearms. Some are back door methods such as allowing purchase but not allowing you to store them in your home. We just had some laws struck down in DC and Chicago. I'm not against some regulation but if you really don't know of laws forbidding purchase, you need to do some study.
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LCDR (Join to see)
"Shall not be infringed" has pretty clear meaning. It's not a question of whether or not something can be rationalized or not. Our founding fathers intended to take certain things out of the hands of the rationalizers and petty tyrants.
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Cpl Mark McMiller
I guess the OP has never been to Washington, D.C., our nationsl capitol. They have plenty of laws to keep you from owning a gun. And as the previous poster said, the municipalities with the highest gun control in our country have the highest levels of violent crime. It is almost impossible to own a gun in Mexico. How is that working for them with all the drug cartel violence? It is almost impossible to own a gun in England. Yet they have the highest rate of violent crime per capita in the EU. Gun free zones are violent crime zones.
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GySgt William Hardy
Our rights to own guns under the Second Amendment is impeded when one has to register a weapon or obtain a licence. It is just another way of controlling our rights which is unconstitutional to me. There should be some restriction just as there are with the First Amendment, but it could be organized far differently from what is currently in place. First thing is that all fees, licences, and registration should be eliminated. Secondly, the Second Amendment should has restrictions such as you must be 18 to open/conceal carry. We do not need minors having rights they are not mature enough to handle. While a great many minors use guns for sport, the law should specify that it be done under the supervision of an adult, much in the same nature as a learner permit does for driving automobiles. When purchasing a weapon, there should be a background check, but what should happen is that the FBI should have an up-to-date data base that can be checked by the seller, whether it be a private sale or a business. The sales paperwork should have a space for the seller to sign and certify that they checked the national data base. If a problem occurs due to selling a gun to a felon or a mentally unstable person whose name is on the data base, the responsibility is the seller's.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
Corporal Dumesnil, if we knew the answer to that we could have our own talk show and be rich too. Oh, wait, we just have to pretend to have the answer to have a talk show!
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