Posted on Jun 30, 2017
MAJ Bryan Zeski
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Posted in these groups: Imgres ConstitutionDd389bad Gun Control
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MSgt James Mullis
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Unfringed? That's a strange choice of words...however, I'll answer your question by sending you to another of our Constitutional Amendments. The 18th Amendment, which prohibited the production, transport, and sale of alcohol within the United States. It didn't work and neither has, does, or would the banning guns in America. You might ask why? Because criminals do not obey laws! Take away guns and you take away the means of defense by the weak over the strong and the immoral. Of course most Americans are not criminals so when you take away their guns you make them easy prey. On a side note the NRA started out defending the rights of black Americans in the South to own guns so they could protect themselves from the KKK (it's true...you can look it up).

You might then want to argue that if we could magically remove all guns from America, things would be better. But that's not true either. Look at England where their death by violence rates went up dramatically after banning guns. The criminals just changed weapons. I'm not even going to mention the ongoing disaster that America's big cities have become after enacting strict gun control on their law abiding citizens. Remember that criminals don't care about obeying gun control laws, they just want to take what you have and sometimes all they want is to hurt you and your family.
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SPC Jeremy Gardner
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Interesting question and very thought provoking. The only thing I can really say, without evidence on hand, is that criminals can attack at anytime and place. If you live in a state like California, where you have a mostly disarmed populous, they honest hard work citizens have no defense because the police cannot be present 24/7 for all criminal activity that happens. In Utah, its much easier to get a CFP (Concealed Firearms Permit) and you don't see blood in the streets from the legal citizens. Its still the criminals that offer up the majority of the violence and in Utah, you never know who is armed. Criminals are cowards, and someone intent on harming lots of people, prefer to do it in an environment of their choosing, where getting shot back at is at a minimal.

For my supporting evidence, the theatre shooting in Colorado, Sandy Hook, the Pulse Nightclub. All of these are locations where gun free zones were established. Gun laws will stop a law abiding citizen that does not want to be arrested. They will never stop a criminal. Being able to defend yourself, as you are the first responder in an incident you are involved in, is not a hard thing to understand, at least not for me.
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CPT Pedro Meza
CPT Pedro Meza
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Colorado, Sandy Hook, the Pulse Nightclub all the shooters had mental health issues, including the shooter of Republican Congressman at the base ball filed.
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SPC Jeremy Gardner
SPC Jeremy Gardner
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You are correct, but my point is that you can never tell when you will be a victim. It could be in an hour, in 10, in 10 years, that is up to the person(s) who decided to commit the crime. Mental health is a very serious issue, one that does not really get a great deal of coverage, since any gun crime is obviously the fault of the gun not the person holding it. The examples I used are just some of many. I could use the beheading of the police officer in France, or the instance of the soldier at Ft. Hood that started shooting people.

There very well could be a link between mental illness and violence, I think there are many studies about this and I am not an expert on that. Peoples rights should not be infringed because you never know when someone will decide its your turn to die on a whim. The founding fathers knew that a tyrannical government, with a disarmed populous, could abuse power easily and the people would have no real defense to stop it. I am looking at things from the stand point of being held at gun point and threatened. Its a terrible feeling looking down the barrel of a gun and left wondering.
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SFC Mark Biggs
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The concept of Militia began in America in the 16oos. The Militia in each English colony included every able-bodied male aged 16-45. Every member was responsible to provide his own weapons, which originally included a matchlock musket and a sword. As firearm development continued, matchlock muskets turned into flintlock muskets, and then flintlock rifles, followed by percussion muskets and percussion rifles. These firearms advancements can be traced through the purchases of firearms by the British Army, the Continental Army, and the U.S. Army. The militia in the British colonies in North America were typically armed with similar, if not identical firearms as the British Army. By the time of the American Revolution, the common soldiers in the militias and the British Army were armed with the "Brown Bess" musket. After the Revolution, the concept of Militia continued and the Militia Act of 1792 called for all members of the Militia in each state to be issued a long arm at Federal expense. It was SOP to arm the militiamen with the same weapons that the Regular Army soldiers carried. This concept of arming the militia with Army weapons continued throughout the 1800s as firearms development went through single shot rifles with paper cartridges, lever action carbines, to bolt action rifles. In the 1900s, both the militia and Regular Army were using the M1903 Springfield bolt action rifle during WWI until it was replaced by the M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle during WWII and the Korean War. The militia morphed into the Army National Guard after WWI, but the idea of the Militia did not change. Just because a person has never served in the uniformed services, including the National Guard, does not mean that there is no militia. Just like from the 1600s until WWI, the Militia includes all able-bodied men aged 16-45. Since there is no current mechanism for these people to be armed at government expense, they will need to provide their own weapons. It makes sense that these weapons be of the same quality as the current weapons issued to the military, not the muskets of 1792 as some have said that the 2nd Amendment refers to. I hope this has been helpful to this discussion. Any errors are my own.
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2LT Intelligence Officer (S2)
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I know he asked to steer away from the 2nd, but you have a good point. For an overwhelming amount of time the Supreme Court took the view that the 2nd pertained to the national guard. The debates during the constitutional ratification also included if the U.S. would rely on militias for defense or a standing army. I think the 2nd was introduced as a middle ground for the side that preferred a militia force (like what fought in the revolution).
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CW3 Harvey K.
CW3 Harvey K.
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Mark --- do you know HOW the Congress fulfilled its Constitutional obligation of "arming ... the militia"?
The Militia Act(s) -- 1792 directed every free, White, male, able-bodied citizen who was conscripted into the militia to "provide himself" with a suitable firearm, ammunition for it, and the field equipment we used to call "782 gear" back in the "old Corps".
Note that no one was ordered to buy anything, just get what was required some way. (That always reminds me of the First Sergeant telling troops to have all required gear for "junk on the bunk" by admonishing them "Build, buy, beg, borrow, steal, shit, or give birth to your issued 782 gear".)
Pretty smart of the Congress. Not a cent came out of the Federal budget to put a musket in a militiaman's hands, and they saw to it that the militia was armed.
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SSgt Christopher Brose
SSgt Christopher Brose
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It's my opinion that the term "militia" is every bit as relevant today as it was when the Constitution was written, and it has nothing to do with the National Guard (I'm not saying anyone here claimed that, I'm just laying out my case). In the vernacular of the time, the National Guard would be considered a part-time standing army, not a militia. A more recent comparison would be a posse -- an ad hoc collection of armed men brought together for a purpose, often lead by someone having authority like a sheriff, though that's not a requirement.

The most recent best example of a militia, in my opinion, is the Korean shop owners during the Rodney King riots. Sections of Los Angeles were being looted and torched, and people were getting hurt and killed. After some initial violence against some Korean shops, the shop owners got their guns and actively & successfully defended their shops and their area of town. They saved themselves from millions of dollars of theft and destruction, and probably saved themselves from visits to hospitals or morgues.

Everything about that situation was in line with what the framers had in mind. Government at that time had chosen not to protect them, so they came together on their own with enough firepower to preserve their property and liberty. They could do this because they owned guns.
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