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I deployed in 1990 and returned in 1991. There were no re-adjustment training programs.
My son returned from Afghanistan a few months ago. I have witnessed and been following his division closely. It appears that there is a significant spike in DUI, substance abuse, domestic violence, and other disciplinary problems. Rather than work with the soldiers the command seems to just Chapter 14 and get rid of the soldier. This causes many good soldiers to lose access to benefits when they are returned to society. The punitive approach as well as lack of consistency is disturbing.
I welcome anyone who can shed some light on this issue.
My son returned from Afghanistan a few months ago. I have witnessed and been following his division closely. It appears that there is a significant spike in DUI, substance abuse, domestic violence, and other disciplinary problems. Rather than work with the soldiers the command seems to just Chapter 14 and get rid of the soldier. This causes many good soldiers to lose access to benefits when they are returned to society. The punitive approach as well as lack of consistency is disturbing.
I welcome anyone who can shed some light on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
I've read all the responses to this post, and all are right-on from each poster's perspective. As a Gulf War vet who imploded after coming home, I can tell you that, yes, help was available and easily accessible. Yes, family was there, and available to talk to. It didn't matter.
While everyone on this post is theorizing, you're missing is the reality of what's going on inside the mind of the SM who's imploding: It's not that we don't want help - we do; it's not that we cannot see that we need help - we can. Something we don't understand will not allow us to do it - in spite of our desire, we simply cannot engage to take the necessary action.
We cannot make you understand what we cannot put into words; this is not a lack of vocabulary or language skills, it's not "vapor lock" - it is the loss of an ability - a paralysis of communication. If you've truly lost an active ability, you understand.
While we appreciate our family or command caring enough to offer suggestions (guessing), it becomes chaff, and deflecting the chaff of everyone around us offering guesses just compounds the difficulty of our situation.
This is not "leave me alone to wallow in self pity" or "let me get a free pass" so don't bother climbing on that soap box of guessing - you'd be wrong again. Over the past 25 years, I've worked through all the emotion so that only the core problem remains. The simple, honest, fact of the reality that is inside our head at the moment, and 25 years later is "I cannot communicate that which I do not understand."
No one, at any level of education or rank, has that ability.
Perhaps if you've experienced trying to reconcile the phantom itching of an amputated limb, you'd have a clue to the frustration we suffer from kind of communication disconnect we experience. I can't even draw any parallels that fully convey the concept, so settle for cliche's such as "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". So i reiterate the mind of the imploding soldier: I cannot communicate that which I do not understand. No one, at any level of education or rank, has that ability.
As for solutions, I have none, because after 25 years, I'm still learning to cope with this myself so I can have a "normal" life. As none can help, this seems to be a path we must walk alone.
(the rest is a cranky rant, so you can stop reading now)
This is where we need our "brother's keeper" the most - to protect us from ourselves. You just need to figure out when to intervene and how much.
If you want someone you care about to avoid a DUI, take their keys (by force, if necessary) rather than just saying "Hey, don't drink and drive" while they are getting in the car. We'll hate you for getting in our way at the moment, but later, we'll thank you for saving our career or more importantly, our life. As someone stated earlier, if you wait for the event, it's too late. Your brother can stumble all he wants, but if your brother falls, you've failed to be your brother's keeper. Reactionary measures are not a remedy by design. Reactionary measures such as CH14 are just CYA for the brass because no one likes to admit they failed. I've acknowledged my failures - I didn't like it, but I did it. It put me on a higher moral path than most.
While everyone on this post is theorizing, you're missing is the reality of what's going on inside the mind of the SM who's imploding: It's not that we don't want help - we do; it's not that we cannot see that we need help - we can. Something we don't understand will not allow us to do it - in spite of our desire, we simply cannot engage to take the necessary action.
We cannot make you understand what we cannot put into words; this is not a lack of vocabulary or language skills, it's not "vapor lock" - it is the loss of an ability - a paralysis of communication. If you've truly lost an active ability, you understand.
While we appreciate our family or command caring enough to offer suggestions (guessing), it becomes chaff, and deflecting the chaff of everyone around us offering guesses just compounds the difficulty of our situation.
This is not "leave me alone to wallow in self pity" or "let me get a free pass" so don't bother climbing on that soap box of guessing - you'd be wrong again. Over the past 25 years, I've worked through all the emotion so that only the core problem remains. The simple, honest, fact of the reality that is inside our head at the moment, and 25 years later is "I cannot communicate that which I do not understand."
No one, at any level of education or rank, has that ability.
Perhaps if you've experienced trying to reconcile the phantom itching of an amputated limb, you'd have a clue to the frustration we suffer from kind of communication disconnect we experience. I can't even draw any parallels that fully convey the concept, so settle for cliche's such as "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". So i reiterate the mind of the imploding soldier: I cannot communicate that which I do not understand. No one, at any level of education or rank, has that ability.
As for solutions, I have none, because after 25 years, I'm still learning to cope with this myself so I can have a "normal" life. As none can help, this seems to be a path we must walk alone.
(the rest is a cranky rant, so you can stop reading now)
This is where we need our "brother's keeper" the most - to protect us from ourselves. You just need to figure out when to intervene and how much.
If you want someone you care about to avoid a DUI, take their keys (by force, if necessary) rather than just saying "Hey, don't drink and drive" while they are getting in the car. We'll hate you for getting in our way at the moment, but later, we'll thank you for saving our career or more importantly, our life. As someone stated earlier, if you wait for the event, it's too late. Your brother can stumble all he wants, but if your brother falls, you've failed to be your brother's keeper. Reactionary measures are not a remedy by design. Reactionary measures such as CH14 are just CYA for the brass because no one likes to admit they failed. I've acknowledged my failures - I didn't like it, but I did it. It put me on a higher moral path than most.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
I was like that after Vietnam. I saw the neighbor acting weird and I asked my wife, what is wrong with him? She said I acted the same way when I got home. I woke up and changed somethings but I still have the habit of facing the door at resturants or any closed places. There really is not much we can do. The nightmare will still keep coming. After watching some W11 movies and seeing some of the things those guy saw I wonder how in tarnation did they ever get them out of their mind. We all have to work our on way out and hope for the best. If you have family, bury in them. They need the help also. Try to do it together. best of luck and god bless.
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SN Timothy Ehrenhaft
Groups can be useful when all the participants have shed the emotional attachment of their experience, until then, it's counter-productive... Tried group and private therapy, to no avail.. and for those who have lost the ability to communicate, discussion of any type is not possible. (please re-read my previous comments on "chaff") To be clear, it takes great effort (and patience with myself) for me to compose my responses. Please don't confuse moments of functionality with "he's got the answers to a cure!"
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SSgt (Join to see)
The best thing with group is meeting new people and the realization that you are not alone and this includes Veterans who never addressed their own problems. The problem is some of the stuff at the VA. Those individuals who are a permanent fixture whose job is to help but won't even make eye contact with you.
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SFC (Join to see)
I have tried group therapy once. It was a good group at the right time I think. I was useful and great at the time, but there is no onetime fix
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SGT Christina Wilder - Sergeant; My suggestion was that there should be a mandatory "cooling down phase" following deployment where the troops remained under military discipline and were gradually re-introduced to "normal life".
I also suggested that this be coupled by a mandatory "directed leave" policy where the troops (and their families) would be housed in resorts and (loosely) monitored by the military.
I also suggested that there was no such thing as "IF the soldier is having problems." and that all returnees be advised that we EXPECTED there to be "re-adjustment issues" SOME of which SOME of them would handle on their own and SOME of which SOME of them would need assistance in dealing with but that what our goal was was to ensure that ALL of them finally dealt with ALL of the issues in a manner which provided for a successful continuation of their career.
All three of those would have cost a lot of money.
All three of those would have (helped significantly) to prevent the necessity for discharging valuable personnel and to prevent the unwanted consequences of undealt with "deployment issues".
I also suggested that this be coupled by a mandatory "directed leave" policy where the troops (and their families) would be housed in resorts and (loosely) monitored by the military.
I also suggested that there was no such thing as "IF the soldier is having problems." and that all returnees be advised that we EXPECTED there to be "re-adjustment issues" SOME of which SOME of them would handle on their own and SOME of which SOME of them would need assistance in dealing with but that what our goal was was to ensure that ALL of them finally dealt with ALL of the issues in a manner which provided for a successful continuation of their career.
All three of those would have cost a lot of money.
All three of those would have (helped significantly) to prevent the necessity for discharging valuable personnel and to prevent the unwanted consequences of undealt with "deployment issues".
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
I wish I could vote you up 2/3 times for your answer. Thank you for your frank and honest answer.
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SGT William Howell
COL Ted Mc Sir, I would have tore the ears off my commander if I had to spend one more day under military control longer than was needed. Being a Guard soldier I spent 4 months in pre-deployment training, 13 months in combat and I had seen my family a total of 2 weeks during that entire time. Because some Joe gets a DUI does not mean my family is any less important, but I saw my people getting into the same trouble. A place to decompress and for my children to get to know their daddy again would have been great.
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COL Ted Mc
SGT William Howell - Sergeant; I quite understand.
The question is what is the definition of "needed".
The people who know "Buddy" the best are likely to be the first to detect that "Buddy" is having real problems. If you disperse those people so that there is no one that "Buddy" knows and trusts to turn to when the ghosts come out of the past, then "Buddy" is going to get much worse much faster.
It may (and I strongly suspect that it would) be necessary to "hold back the well adjusted" in order to "salvage the highest percentage of the psychologically damaged" that we can.
The "jargon enhanced" could well refer to that as "salvaging assets" - I look on it as looking after the troops.
Although I haven't seen any actual research on the point, I suspect that a two year "call up" would work the best. That would be along the lines of:
[1] three months of "pre-deployment workup" (during which the amount of time that the soldier has free to spend with their family gradually diminishes as the training tempo increases),
[2] three months "in theatre workup" (during which the arrivals would work alongside the people who will be leaving [thus effectively doubling the number of troops available for that period]),
[3] twelve months "deployment" (during the last three of which they would be working with the new arrivals so that they can hand over the ground to people who are properly introduced to it),
[4] three months "post-deployment cool down" (during which the training/duty tempo would be gradually lowered), and
[5] three months "supplementary post-deployment leave" (where the "cooled down" soldiers [and their families] would be housed and fed at "regular civilian holiday facilities" which the soldier could chose from a list of "approved facilities" and where the "cooled down" soldiers could have immediate access to further "psychological rehabilitation resources").
Surprisingly enough that seems to be only three months longer than the current "deployment (including training) period" and actually is only a one month extension of the current "annual leave" that the soldier would accumulate in two years (for a cost increase of approximately 4.166%).
Yes, the soldier would not get to fly home during their fifteen months "in theatre", but I'm not so sure (based on the historical record) that that being able to "go home" is actually a good idea - especially since there is a statistical likelihood that soldiers are more likely to make dumb (combat) mistakes at the beginning of, and toward the end of, any period of deployment (especially where they manage to "get away" completely.
The question is what is the definition of "needed".
The people who know "Buddy" the best are likely to be the first to detect that "Buddy" is having real problems. If you disperse those people so that there is no one that "Buddy" knows and trusts to turn to when the ghosts come out of the past, then "Buddy" is going to get much worse much faster.
It may (and I strongly suspect that it would) be necessary to "hold back the well adjusted" in order to "salvage the highest percentage of the psychologically damaged" that we can.
The "jargon enhanced" could well refer to that as "salvaging assets" - I look on it as looking after the troops.
Although I haven't seen any actual research on the point, I suspect that a two year "call up" would work the best. That would be along the lines of:
[1] three months of "pre-deployment workup" (during which the amount of time that the soldier has free to spend with their family gradually diminishes as the training tempo increases),
[2] three months "in theatre workup" (during which the arrivals would work alongside the people who will be leaving [thus effectively doubling the number of troops available for that period]),
[3] twelve months "deployment" (during the last three of which they would be working with the new arrivals so that they can hand over the ground to people who are properly introduced to it),
[4] three months "post-deployment cool down" (during which the training/duty tempo would be gradually lowered), and
[5] three months "supplementary post-deployment leave" (where the "cooled down" soldiers [and their families] would be housed and fed at "regular civilian holiday facilities" which the soldier could chose from a list of "approved facilities" and where the "cooled down" soldiers could have immediate access to further "psychological rehabilitation resources").
Surprisingly enough that seems to be only three months longer than the current "deployment (including training) period" and actually is only a one month extension of the current "annual leave" that the soldier would accumulate in two years (for a cost increase of approximately 4.166%).
Yes, the soldier would not get to fly home during their fifteen months "in theatre", but I'm not so sure (based on the historical record) that that being able to "go home" is actually a good idea - especially since there is a statistical likelihood that soldiers are more likely to make dumb (combat) mistakes at the beginning of, and toward the end of, any period of deployment (especially where they manage to "get away" completely.
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SGT William Howell
I think "Needed" is the key word. The younger guys really did need it. I had a kid that was going to OCS who drink that away and 2 who ended up in jail in less than 3 months of being home.
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For startes look at the time difference, it's been 25 years. Also, we are in a massive draw down. Just those two things cause for concern. The generation gap from the average Soldier age to your command team age will always be there, so that is our constant. Fighting a war against an insurgent force and coming home is different than either world war, or even against Korea. Those were clearly defined enemies. Even the Republican Guard under Sadaam Hussein had a clear uniform. The restrictions on ROE and EOF are a lot tighter than they used to be, so that could be part of the problem. I have dealt personally with survivors guil, on why I wasn't there when some lost their life against an IED. We all deal with grief and loss in different ways and we always will. Another constant. The biggest problem today is the sense of entitlement. Soldiers feel they are allowered to do something because they are in the military. The Army pushes so much on SHARP, EO and MRT training, but really it only checks a box. If NCO's and Officers really invest in their Soldiers, these problems would not be near as large. Getting back to truly taking care of the person on you left and right is what needs to happen. But, the Army is a machine that will keep turning no matter the problem, and it will continue to knee jerk reaction to every pokitical problem as well. Taking care of our own is where it has to start.
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SGT Christina Wilder
There are not enough NCO's at Ft. Campbell with that perspective. I understand the difference all I stated my deployment for is to validate my concerns for what is going on in the 101st. There needs to be more mentoring in general. Thank you. Blessings.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
Hey, the Army is not the only one going crazy. Throw in the AF and maybe the Navy. The Commander in Chief has a lot to do with this.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
I agree. Going through B-29 training the Instructor Pilot told the student pilot that his primary focus is to take care of the crew.The guy in the backs said: Sir, i just got a speeding ticket on base today. And the world goes round and round.
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