Posted on Jun 11, 2015
Does anyone else in a leadership position in the reserves find it difficult to maintain a civilian position, find stability, or progress?
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Posted >1 y ago
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I wrote a command post article about this a while back.
Citizen Soldier's careers suffer because of our service. Undoubtedly!
Citizen Soldier's careers suffer because of our service. Undoubtedly!
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CPT (Join to see)
CSM,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you still possess a copy of the article? I would like to read it. I myself have had 3 civilian jobs in the last 4 years due to my military obligations. One was with SunTrust who did expedited interviews and the manager read from a sheet of paper "at this time we do not feel you will be an asset to our team and are hereby letting you go". When I asked if it was because I was recently gone for three weeks for military duty and they would not make their goals, she just read the paper word for word again. The next position I had was with Langley Federal Credit Union, which I left due to finding an internship with the United States Army Audit Agency. At the end of my internship, I was told they were not converting my position to full-time as they did not see me as being an asset down the road. Again, I feel that my civilian opportunities are being severely hindered, but I cannot seem to find / make any connections that would prevent this from continuously happening. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Very Respectfully,
1LT Krohn
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you still possess a copy of the article? I would like to read it. I myself have had 3 civilian jobs in the last 4 years due to my military obligations. One was with SunTrust who did expedited interviews and the manager read from a sheet of paper "at this time we do not feel you will be an asset to our team and are hereby letting you go". When I asked if it was because I was recently gone for three weeks for military duty and they would not make their goals, she just read the paper word for word again. The next position I had was with Langley Federal Credit Union, which I left due to finding an internship with the United States Army Audit Agency. At the end of my internship, I was told they were not converting my position to full-time as they did not see me as being an asset down the road. Again, I feel that my civilian opportunities are being severely hindered, but I cannot seem to find / make any connections that would prevent this from continuously happening. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Very Respectfully,
1LT Krohn
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CSM David Heidke
I interviewed for a job at an insurance company that I had previously worked at. It was a phone interview that I did from Afghanistan. I was close to leaving and I was unemployed on the outside.
The interview went great, and the hiring manager said that I had all the qualifications and was one of the best interviews she had. I had told her that I would be willing to do the other interviews over Skype and she said that wouldn't be a problem.
When I followed up later about subsequent interviews I got a terse reply that I would no longer be considered because of where I was. Bad form...
Another one. I'm not sure if this is in the article but I'll tell it again.
I worked at Circuit City (I mention the name because it's no longer in business), and I was a part time sales person. The cut off for full time was 30 hours. I routinely worked 32-35 hours a week every week. The difference in pay was that full time people got full commission and part time got 80%. Now I'm not bragging when I say that I was a stellar salesman, so a 20% bump would have been incredible. I put in for full time and was told that I would be converted.
I went to Annual Training.
When I got back, they told me that I was not to be converted to full time.
The next schedule that came out, I promptly reduced my hours to 20, the store lost money because I wasn't there. They lost out on a mutually beneficial relationship.
The interview went great, and the hiring manager said that I had all the qualifications and was one of the best interviews she had. I had told her that I would be willing to do the other interviews over Skype and she said that wouldn't be a problem.
When I followed up later about subsequent interviews I got a terse reply that I would no longer be considered because of where I was. Bad form...
Another one. I'm not sure if this is in the article but I'll tell it again.
I worked at Circuit City (I mention the name because it's no longer in business), and I was a part time sales person. The cut off for full time was 30 hours. I routinely worked 32-35 hours a week every week. The difference in pay was that full time people got full commission and part time got 80%. Now I'm not bragging when I say that I was a stellar salesman, so a 20% bump would have been incredible. I put in for full time and was told that I would be converted.
I went to Annual Training.
When I got back, they told me that I was not to be converted to full time.
The next schedule that came out, I promptly reduced my hours to 20, the store lost money because I wasn't there. They lost out on a mutually beneficial relationship.
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I worked for a U.S. based French company, for almost 3 years. (Actually, TWO....same industry/competitors...I left the first, and myself and several military officers who worked at the first company, were immediately picked up by their competitor...but, LONG story there...)
There were alot of issues at play regarding why I (and several other military officers/SNCOs they had recruited left within a 6 month time frame), but I never really felt it difficult to maintain the position. The company deliberately went through a military recruiter and hired military officers/SNCOs for their front-line leadership/supervisory positions. They KNEW they were getting bargain basement prices compared to the 6-figures+ the Army has invested into our leadership training.
Progress/Upward Mobility -- There was none, nor would there ever be. As a French company, the French held all the upper management positions, and I don't forsee that ever changing. For those in the front-line leadership positions--I had 40+ direct reports myself--that was the furthest our careers would ever progress, no matter how hard we worked or excelled. It was an interesting irony that all the upper management were French, yet, they deliberately sought out U.S. military officers to provide the leadership that they couldn't.
I never had difficulty with them working with me regarding my training obligations. The biggest problem is that they took lasseiz-faire leadership to the extreme. They really just didn't care about most things. Good luck trying to get anyone to care about any issues your employees were going through. To some, this might have been the perfect position because there was very little concern, care or accountability--in fact, it was inexistent--supervisors came and went as they pleased--some to such an extreme that production floor employees actually started to keep their own record of a supervisor's time off the production floor.
Upper management really didn't care what supervisors did, just so long as they maintained order and kept the 200+ production floor employees as far as away/distanced from them as possible. It was nice to have this autonomy, but, it was near impossible to get anything done. My biggest issue is that there was just so little support....and, for a supervisor with 40+ reports, you NEED that support. It's like the guys on the ground not have all the support required to effectively execute an operation.
One thing I did do, though, was put several key individuals there in for an ESGR Patriot Award:
http://www.esgr.mil/employer-awards/patriot-award.aspx
I didn't agree with alot of things there, but, they never really gave me a hard time with work obligations vs. military obligations. Doing that at least gave me the chance to show appreciation for what they DID do, even though their 'working with me' wasn't so much out of patriotism or love of the military as much as it was just simply not caring.
There were alot of issues at play regarding why I (and several other military officers/SNCOs they had recruited left within a 6 month time frame), but I never really felt it difficult to maintain the position. The company deliberately went through a military recruiter and hired military officers/SNCOs for their front-line leadership/supervisory positions. They KNEW they were getting bargain basement prices compared to the 6-figures+ the Army has invested into our leadership training.
Progress/Upward Mobility -- There was none, nor would there ever be. As a French company, the French held all the upper management positions, and I don't forsee that ever changing. For those in the front-line leadership positions--I had 40+ direct reports myself--that was the furthest our careers would ever progress, no matter how hard we worked or excelled. It was an interesting irony that all the upper management were French, yet, they deliberately sought out U.S. military officers to provide the leadership that they couldn't.
I never had difficulty with them working with me regarding my training obligations. The biggest problem is that they took lasseiz-faire leadership to the extreme. They really just didn't care about most things. Good luck trying to get anyone to care about any issues your employees were going through. To some, this might have been the perfect position because there was very little concern, care or accountability--in fact, it was inexistent--supervisors came and went as they pleased--some to such an extreme that production floor employees actually started to keep their own record of a supervisor's time off the production floor.
Upper management really didn't care what supervisors did, just so long as they maintained order and kept the 200+ production floor employees as far as away/distanced from them as possible. It was nice to have this autonomy, but, it was near impossible to get anything done. My biggest issue is that there was just so little support....and, for a supervisor with 40+ reports, you NEED that support. It's like the guys on the ground not have all the support required to effectively execute an operation.
One thing I did do, though, was put several key individuals there in for an ESGR Patriot Award:
http://www.esgr.mil/employer-awards/patriot-award.aspx
I didn't agree with alot of things there, but, they never really gave me a hard time with work obligations vs. military obligations. Doing that at least gave me the chance to show appreciation for what they DID do, even though their 'working with me' wasn't so much out of patriotism or love of the military as much as it was just simply not caring.
Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve > Employer Awards > Patriot Award
The first in ESGR's series of awards is the Patriot Award. An employee serving in the National Guard or Reserve, or the spouse of a Guard or Reserve member, may nominateindividual supervisors and bosses for support provided directly to the nominating Service member and his or her family.The Patriot Award reflects the efforts made to support Citizen Warriors through a wide-range of measures including flexible schedules, time off prior to and...
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I was a civilian in a Navy organization that the Flags were also my Reserve bosses. I did have the senior civilian once tell me he'd never promote a reservist because they aren't here when you need them. That filtered up to the Flag and right back down to the CO. He was more than supportive thereafter. You'll always have managers who don't want to manage around your Reserve duty. The question is it a corporate culture?
I will tell you that one choice isn't there and that's being fired for being Reserve. That happened to several of my staff that were recalled. Did it violate the law? Yes. Did anything happen? No. Here's why. Justice Department has minimum thresholds to meet, usually in the $2-3M range. Since most people eventually find other jobs, the damages wouldn't meet their minimum. It doesn't matter how strong the evidence is. I had an O-5 in my Command that received a letter from a lodging chain that he was terminated and the reason was his affiliation in the Reserves. Slam dunk right? Nope. Justice just said "You're an architect and the market is good for architects". They didn't even care that there was no severance benefits. They closed the file as the CDR took on another year active as he needed a job now, not 3 months later.
You will see a lot of the first answer out there. Please don't give employers a reason to hesitate in investing in you by being a good steward of the company. That means you don't drop work on the floor, keep management informed, etc. and otherwise look like you care about the company you're working at. It only takes a few dirt bags to turn a company off.
I will tell you that one choice isn't there and that's being fired for being Reserve. That happened to several of my staff that were recalled. Did it violate the law? Yes. Did anything happen? No. Here's why. Justice Department has minimum thresholds to meet, usually in the $2-3M range. Since most people eventually find other jobs, the damages wouldn't meet their minimum. It doesn't matter how strong the evidence is. I had an O-5 in my Command that received a letter from a lodging chain that he was terminated and the reason was his affiliation in the Reserves. Slam dunk right? Nope. Justice just said "You're an architect and the market is good for architects". They didn't even care that there was no severance benefits. They closed the file as the CDR took on another year active as he needed a job now, not 3 months later.
You will see a lot of the first answer out there. Please don't give employers a reason to hesitate in investing in you by being a good steward of the company. That means you don't drop work on the floor, keep management informed, etc. and otherwise look like you care about the company you're working at. It only takes a few dirt bags to turn a company off.
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CSM David Heidke
I have my reserve stuff on my resume because it explains a big absence from my civilian career, but I never mention the obligation I still have until I actually get the job.
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CAPT Kevin B.
CSM David Heidke It is a two edged sword especially when it comes to interview. There you have to come clean. Case law is pretty thin on not hiring because of Reserve affiliation. It sure isn't Title 7 and everyone will be very negative about trying to draw parallels.
Coming clean in an interview is best as they can easily fire you later for lying. Good employers will work your schedule in. Not so good employers you might not want to work for.
Coming clean in an interview is best as they can easily fire you later for lying. Good employers will work your schedule in. Not so good employers you might not want to work for.
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