Posted on Apr 10, 2015
Two-star fired for 'treason' rant against A-10 supporters - what do you guys think?
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I think the punishment will essentially end his career. LOR as a two-star will mean no promotion and he'll likely be "asked" to retire by Gen Welsh. Without having three years as a two star, that'll also mean he'll retire as a one star.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/04/10/fired-for-treason-comments/25569181/
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/04/10/fired-for-treason-comments/25569181/
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
I was in the room when he said it, so please let me provide some context for those who have not grown up in the fighter pilot community. (Full disclosure: I am a retired Tanker pilot and NOT a "patch wearer" graduate of the USAF Weapons School)
Aircrew members in the Air Force have a culture and an ethos. Much of it is based on the mistakes we make in the air, and the public humiliation we use as a method to train those mistakes out. This is called "mission debrief". It is an open forum where rank means nothing and combat effectiveness means everything, and a 2Lt is EXPECTED to call out a mission mistake made by an O-6. So, we grow up doing this amongst ourselves, and when the debrief is over, it's over. Ranks are back on and we don't mention the mission mistakes in public. The system works.
At WEPTAC in January, the room was full of "patchwearers" (maybe 90% of the audience). These guys have been through hundreds if not thousands of mission debriefs. The doors were closed. Maj Gen Post said what he said. I was taking notes, and still have them.
In that room, on that day, I believe the general was talking to his fighter pilots, and asking them to present a common Air Force perspective on the A-10. I took the treason comment as a joke. He was smiling and being flippant, so I thought nothing of it until I saw it in the paper. I believe nearly everyone in that room had the same reaction as me, but THAT's where the problem is. If only ONE person took it as a threat, that was too many.
I don't know General Post personally. I only got the sense he spoke openly and didn't have a tight brain-to-mouth filter. So I liked that in him. Patton was definitely worse, and he would not survive a minute in today's media-driven world.
He made a mistake too big for a General to make, or to survive. In this case, I think it's a shame, but I don't disagree with the result.
Aircrew members in the Air Force have a culture and an ethos. Much of it is based on the mistakes we make in the air, and the public humiliation we use as a method to train those mistakes out. This is called "mission debrief". It is an open forum where rank means nothing and combat effectiveness means everything, and a 2Lt is EXPECTED to call out a mission mistake made by an O-6. So, we grow up doing this amongst ourselves, and when the debrief is over, it's over. Ranks are back on and we don't mention the mission mistakes in public. The system works.
At WEPTAC in January, the room was full of "patchwearers" (maybe 90% of the audience). These guys have been through hundreds if not thousands of mission debriefs. The doors were closed. Maj Gen Post said what he said. I was taking notes, and still have them.
In that room, on that day, I believe the general was talking to his fighter pilots, and asking them to present a common Air Force perspective on the A-10. I took the treason comment as a joke. He was smiling and being flippant, so I thought nothing of it until I saw it in the paper. I believe nearly everyone in that room had the same reaction as me, but THAT's where the problem is. If only ONE person took it as a threat, that was too many.
I don't know General Post personally. I only got the sense he spoke openly and didn't have a tight brain-to-mouth filter. So I liked that in him. Patton was definitely worse, and he would not survive a minute in today's media-driven world.
He made a mistake too big for a General to make, or to survive. In this case, I think it's a shame, but I don't disagree with the result.
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SGT Timothy Rocheleau
You should expect to be axed simply because someone lost trust in you over a statement said in jest? Whatever happened to the counseling and corrective action. Even as a senior leader a person deserves a second chance to prove themselves, especially when they have faithfully executed the responsibilities of their role for 30 years or more. In a thirty year career you should be allowed to make a mistake. And recover from it! Sensitive cry asses is the problem. Again, boohoo!!! Go wipe your nose and talk to mommy about it.
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MSgt Jamie Lyons
@Col Joseph Lenertz. Well said sir and if I may second your sentiments about aircrew debrief process. As an enlisted aircrew member (Load on C-130 & Engineer on KC-10), I have been in many mission debrief between aircrew members. Rank plays no part in the room until we leave. You articulated the culture of debriefings in the aircrew world well and I can see how this 'scene' played out. It is a shame this excellent officer was dismissed and the service is worst for it.
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SGT Joe Sabedra
I like your response.
Just from what I read I was not happy.
I was pushed out for applying for SF by an E-8 that had a similar comment about SF.
I was not in the room so I will accept what you say.
On the other side as a ground soldier the A-10 is the most direct eyes on air craft I have ever seen in action.
I see no fast mover ever replacing it.
nuff said.
Just from what I read I was not happy.
I was pushed out for applying for SF by an E-8 that had a similar comment about SF.
I was not in the room so I will accept what you say.
On the other side as a ground soldier the A-10 is the most direct eyes on air craft I have ever seen in action.
I see no fast mover ever replacing it.
nuff said.
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There seems to be a perception amongst those of us who are/were enlisted that officers, especially those at O-6 or higher, are frequently given less harsh punishment simply because of rank. This is wrong.
If he didn't want his personnel to publicly speak out against the F-35 program, he could have just ordered it and that's all. He took it to another level when he showed his lack of professionalism by demeaning those who disagreed with him. Anyone in a position like his should know better.
If he didn't want his personnel to publicly speak out against the F-35 program, he could have just ordered it and that's all. He took it to another level when he showed his lack of professionalism by demeaning those who disagreed with him. Anyone in a position like his should know better.
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Maj Mike Sciales
That is a valid perception and in many cases I've seen or know of that is in fact the reality. I'd throw senior NCOs into that category. We allow a lot of people to retire "for the good of the service" for a variety of reasons but mostly because it would just look bad on the Service. This person had gone through all these purported checks on their way up and somehow they got through the screening. In a lot of cases that don't make the news we LOR a fair amount of senior officers or NCOs and that really does kill their careers. Remember, your pension doesn't vest until you are retired, up until that day, you don't get a penny if you get kicked and I've also known of a few senior officers who were only guilty of having "sex with the hired help" and they spent time in Leavenworth, lost their commissions and pensions - one guy at the 19.5 year mark. So yes, senior officers do somethings get far less of a public "spanking" than a junior officer, NCO or enlisted person but the price is much higher -- because a young person can rebuild whereas a senior person is pretty much screwed for life. You think Patraeus wanted to be a college professor?
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Here is what I see. I don't know the context of what happened. Col Joseph Lenertz gave us a nice overall view but still, this is a "had to have been there thing."
Problem is, and it has been pointed out by other members, his words were taken as a Threat, but also as a confirmation of taking sides in a political debate. (why keep the A-10). I have worked around some officers and the O-6's and up, and even O-5's, all start to have to work on their political side of there job. Especially Wing Commanders, as they are the figure head of the Air base to the community at large. These men and women are constantly in the public light and are mentored and taught how to be professional and dance that political dance the military does.
This General failed at the dance. Whether he meant to step on his partners toes or not, it doesn't matter. His military career is done. As for his Civilian Career, I doubt he would even take a mark. In fact there are probably companies right now trying to recruit him because they know he is done in the military.
I always wondered about punishment to higher ups. I see it as a double edged sword. They do get off easier on bigger things. Being forced to retire or paperwork for something a E-3 would get thrown out of the service for. But also, if they make one mistake and it can be very minor, their AF career is done right then and there. No jury needed. You know after he made that comment and congress found out, He was done. didn't take a LOR from his superior, he was done the moment that story made it to a paper.
Problem is, and it has been pointed out by other members, his words were taken as a Threat, but also as a confirmation of taking sides in a political debate. (why keep the A-10). I have worked around some officers and the O-6's and up, and even O-5's, all start to have to work on their political side of there job. Especially Wing Commanders, as they are the figure head of the Air base to the community at large. These men and women are constantly in the public light and are mentored and taught how to be professional and dance that political dance the military does.
This General failed at the dance. Whether he meant to step on his partners toes or not, it doesn't matter. His military career is done. As for his Civilian Career, I doubt he would even take a mark. In fact there are probably companies right now trying to recruit him because they know he is done in the military.
I always wondered about punishment to higher ups. I see it as a double edged sword. They do get off easier on bigger things. Being forced to retire or paperwork for something a E-3 would get thrown out of the service for. But also, if they make one mistake and it can be very minor, their AF career is done right then and there. No jury needed. You know after he made that comment and congress found out, He was done. didn't take a LOR from his superior, he was done the moment that story made it to a paper.
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