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While looking at a reference provided in another thread, I came across this and it struck me as odd.
" FM 7-21.13 4-18. A soldier addressing a higher ranking officer uses the word sir or ma’am in the same manner as a polite civilian speaking with a person to
whom he wishes to show respect. In the military service, the matter of who
says sir or ma’am to whom is clearly defined; in civilian life it is largely a
matter of discretion. In the case of NCOs and soldiers, we address them by
their rank because they’ve earned that rank. "
This just strikes me as just plain wrong to have in an official FM since it strongly implies that Officers do not "earn" their rank.
what are others thoughts?
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm7_21x13.pdf
" FM 7-21.13 4-18. A soldier addressing a higher ranking officer uses the word sir or ma’am in the same manner as a polite civilian speaking with a person to
whom he wishes to show respect. In the military service, the matter of who
says sir or ma’am to whom is clearly defined; in civilian life it is largely a
matter of discretion. In the case of NCOs and soldiers, we address them by
their rank because they’ve earned that rank. "
This just strikes me as just plain wrong to have in an official FM since it strongly implies that Officers do not "earn" their rank.
what are others thoughts?
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm7_21x13.pdf
Customs and Courtesies
Rank
Officers
Enlisted
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 54
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Respect is an Army value, and it's not very pleasant to work with people who don't value your contribution whether it's as an officer, soldier, KATUSA, Cadet etc. So, I think that's the reason why we use titles to address each other-- moreso when we're unfamiliar with those we're addressing. As soon as trust develops, and as the setting allows I think professionals can use different words that show genuine respect and affection without being very formal. Some units get to this stage very quickly. For example, a lot of special forces units use first names. I was shocked when first exposed to this and thought that it meant disrespect. As in a lot of things, context is key. For instance, the use of a first name on an official report or award indicates that the person receiving recognition was known intimately to the senior or recommender. So, whether it's Colonel, boss, Bob, KATUSA Kim, Sir, Top, Chief, men, gentlemen, Rangers, or whatever, just make sure that it respects both the person and the institution. I agree that calling Soldiers Joe or Johnny or Charlie can be demeaning, but it can also be used affectionately and appropriately as well. Same for LT and Old Man.
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CW4 Brian Haas
I have also met some 1SGs (only a couple) that went ballistic being called Top. To me, it is a total term of respect. Of course, they would call me Chief and see nothing wrong there...
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SSgt Boyd Herrst
I've been to different Posts and AF bases and Commands and they all got their own idea of what respect is, how to show it.
Training commands are steeped
In showing respect for ranks, from private or Airman up to General.
I went to post out west that had
A Training Cmnd detachment.. So there appeared to be a lot of formal
Recognition of Rank and position.
An example would be when I and some other AF NCOs and Airmen were working in the Mess hall getting the meal ready and one of the pfcs left some pans on the table that just came off the line. I asked him to take them to the scullery and that I had clean pans to put more product. He just kept going, a SSG, one of theirs stopped him and asked if he didn't hear me(the other
SSg. He said he had to get back on
The line.. Their SSG had him come back and apologize and take the soiled pans to the scullery. The SSG wasn't satisfied with the pfcs
Answer and told him do a better job of it, so he finally said "I apologize SSG. Herrst, for being rude, it will not happen again, SSG."... one of the Airmen with me had already cleared the pans, so the pfc just went back to his post on the serving line.. The Army SSG nipped it in the bud right then,
I had production to get done so I handle the sit-rep when I get time after the meal is completed. There's formality, I handle correcting differently, in private.
There were others around, the way he handled it was not the way I would have. The Other SSG said that he had to nip it while their mistake is still fresh, and we were on a post that had a training command . He pointed up to the office where the Warrant officer was and happened to be watching..
So I surmised there was some pressure involved..
Training commands are steeped
In showing respect for ranks, from private or Airman up to General.
I went to post out west that had
A Training Cmnd detachment.. So there appeared to be a lot of formal
Recognition of Rank and position.
An example would be when I and some other AF NCOs and Airmen were working in the Mess hall getting the meal ready and one of the pfcs left some pans on the table that just came off the line. I asked him to take them to the scullery and that I had clean pans to put more product. He just kept going, a SSG, one of theirs stopped him and asked if he didn't hear me(the other
SSg. He said he had to get back on
The line.. Their SSG had him come back and apologize and take the soiled pans to the scullery. The SSG wasn't satisfied with the pfcs
Answer and told him do a better job of it, so he finally said "I apologize SSG. Herrst, for being rude, it will not happen again, SSG."... one of the Airmen with me had already cleared the pans, so the pfc just went back to his post on the serving line.. The Army SSG nipped it in the bud right then,
I had production to get done so I handle the sit-rep when I get time after the meal is completed. There's formality, I handle correcting differently, in private.
There were others around, the way he handled it was not the way I would have. The Other SSG said that he had to nip it while their mistake is still fresh, and we were on a post that had a training command . He pointed up to the office where the Warrant officer was and happened to be watching..
So I surmised there was some pressure involved..
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
MSG(P) (Join to see) - I totally agree MSG, I used first name basis with the commander in private, only because we had known each other coming up through the ranks, only he decided to become an officer. Great man.
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15
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Just a general response to all these "officer" posts. Things must have really changed since I was in, granted it was a long time ago. All of the officers that I knew were professional, intelligent and honorable people. I'm not saying that they were perfect, but certainly not the image that I gather from reading posts about them on RP. So I'm not really sure what is going on. Furthermore, all of the posts by officers on RP seem to fit my experience of them and not a lot of the posts by enlisted servicemen about current officers so I am really at a loss. Is it just the fact that the internet allows anyone to post immediate thoughts to everyone or is something else going on?
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
PO2 Jonathan Scharff , I agree. That is why I was even more shocked to see this in an Army Field Manual.
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SGM Erik Marquez
I only retired 11 months 22 days ago...lol
But I concur with your observations PO2 Jonathan Scharff
But I concur with your observations PO2 Jonathan Scharff
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CW4 Brian Haas
I think it is the typical Soldiers bitching...banter...whatever. Officers suck, NCOs aren't out here helping, blah blah blah. It hasn't changed.
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