Posted on May 19, 2018
How common is a Field Grade Article 15 for first offenses (minor)?
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I’ve been to legal and they were no help. Without specifics, I’m being pressed with a couple charges that are inaccurate and my honest truth is backed by physical evidence. However, my unit does not want to drop the case. All legal told me was none of this was worth written counseling, let alone any degree of Article 15. They believe my LTC should drop the case but many in my unit say that he will not care and will still hit me with max punishment.
i have several NCOs that agree I am a great soldier that I’m being targeted because female combat arms is frowned upon. I refuse to believe that it’s outright bias, I would hope my unit is better than that.
Would anyone have advice on how to handle this situation professionally?
i have several NCOs that agree I am a great soldier that I’m being targeted because female combat arms is frowned upon. I refuse to believe that it’s outright bias, I would hope my unit is better than that.
Would anyone have advice on how to handle this situation professionally?
UCMJ
Article 15
13B: Cannon Crewmember
Toxic Leadership
Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 58
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I don't think that a public forum is the best place to discuss this. Best advice - consult with an attorney off-base that specializes in UCMJ and Military Law. Most will give a free consultation. Otherwise, you will easily be in over your head. Listening to the "barracks lawyers" is not wise.
Edit: See LT Lober's response below. The reason I said seek counsel is so someone qualified can review your case. Based on their experience they should be able to tell if you have basis for requesting a CM, where different rules apply. If you try that on your own, you may make critical mistakes that will jeopardize the future of your case. An attorney retained at that point may not be able to undo actions you've already taken. Then, as I referred to, you are in over your head. You could then get your CM and it might not work out well. Counsel may see a definite injustice that can't be addressed fully at Art 15. They may also see that your chances are better to take your lumps at NJP and move on. Two things apply - be careful what you ask for, and NJP refers to "Non Judicial" Punishment. If you are thinking that you are going to get off on a technicality based on "barracks lawyers" or your Google research, you may be in for a rude awakening. The last thing you want to be seen as is a lone crusader for justice based on hip pocket theories. At that point you're all alone and standing tall vs. the Command. You still have to serve in the Command after your case, so consider that. Speak with an attorney, because that's the only place where you will get qualified legal advice.
Edit: See LT Lober's response below. The reason I said seek counsel is so someone qualified can review your case. Based on their experience they should be able to tell if you have basis for requesting a CM, where different rules apply. If you try that on your own, you may make critical mistakes that will jeopardize the future of your case. An attorney retained at that point may not be able to undo actions you've already taken. Then, as I referred to, you are in over your head. You could then get your CM and it might not work out well. Counsel may see a definite injustice that can't be addressed fully at Art 15. They may also see that your chances are better to take your lumps at NJP and move on. Two things apply - be careful what you ask for, and NJP refers to "Non Judicial" Punishment. If you are thinking that you are going to get off on a technicality based on "barracks lawyers" or your Google research, you may be in for a rude awakening. The last thing you want to be seen as is a lone crusader for justice based on hip pocket theories. At that point you're all alone and standing tall vs. the Command. You still have to serve in the Command after your case, so consider that. Speak with an attorney, because that's the only place where you will get qualified legal advice.
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SFC Robert Baumgardner Jr.
Find a civilian attorney that specializes in UCMJ and Military Law to speak with.
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CWO3 (Join to see)
Cpl Vic Burk - Yes indeed Vic. They either were part of, or advising the "10%" that lined up outside various hatches on Monday morning all over the Corps. Thankfully I only had to respond to what presented itself. Small unit leadership culled out much of it. If it's on the MP or local Police Blotter, it comes down from above.
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CWO3 (Join to see)
SGT Bryan O'Reilly - Outstanding small unit leadership. Economy of management, and with counselling might lay a path for redemption. A Sgt in USMC had much leeway and discretion, as long as they followed the rules, and didn't exceed boundaries. You just have to know what's too hot for your plate, and know when to pass it up.
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General information: the level of article 15 is up to the commander that is trying to maintain good order and discipline and the situation as they see it. There is a general summarized, company and field grade escalation, but Brigade and Battalion commanders with hold authority on certain offenses by policy. This is supported by UCMJ. They retain authority on offenses they believe they are better equipped to handle or to address specific discipline issues at their local command. This isn't like union Douglas factors.
If you have been read an Article 15, it was reviewed by the CJA . The nature of that review is between the CJA and the issuing Commander.
Note on charges. You said you had charges....If you were charged, it isn't Nonjudicial punishment under article 15. That is a court martial (either summary, special or general).
That being said SPC (Join to see) get off Rally point and get to your servicing TDS. Anything you toss out here is open to all. The advice you get will range from well intentioned to straight up barracks lawyering. Get your advice from TDS.
If you have been read an Article 15, it was reviewed by the CJA . The nature of that review is between the CJA and the issuing Commander.
Note on charges. You said you had charges....If you were charged, it isn't Nonjudicial punishment under article 15. That is a court martial (either summary, special or general).
That being said SPC (Join to see) get off Rally point and get to your servicing TDS. Anything you toss out here is open to all. The advice you get will range from well intentioned to straight up barracks lawyering. Get your advice from TDS.
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SPC (Join to see)
I understand sir, but having been to TDS twice only for them to review new matters and a CPT to simply shake his head and tell me to fall on my sword, I believe I’m running out of traditional options.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SPC (Join to see) - if they gave you your options and explained the process it is back to you.
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SSG (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - you can take the art 15 or go for a Court Marshal that is up to you and remember not to talk about what happened on the internet.
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SPC (Join to see) I have no reason to doubt your greatness. But a general piece of advice that will help you as you move forward. It’s just about never helps your case to say, “and others think I’m great..”. If that’s the case (and it very well may be), let those folks advocate on your behalf and tout your greatness. If you are, they won’t hesitate to do so.
Moving along. Without knowing the full details of your incident, please be wary of any legal advice you receive about your case on RP. In every case, there are three versions. The soldiers version, the way the Army views the incident, and then what actually happened. It’s human nature for you to put the incident in the best light. It’s the Army’s nature to want uphold good order and discipline and assume Privates are messing up. And then there’s the actual incident or event that led to your current predicament.
I don’t think your commander was just sitting around one day thinking, “how do I turn PFC Bailey’s life into a dumpster fire this month? Ahh, I know, field grade!!” SOMETHiNG had to have happened to get to this point. I always found that the privates who suddenly became a part of the ‘dindu nuffin’ tribe when it was punishment time only made it harder on themselves.
Now, retired NCO advice time. If the JAG rep said it wasn’t even a counseling worthy incident, but isn’t willing to get involved with your unit, I’d go back to jag (with one of your NCOs who thinks you’re great. You’re going to need some CAS for this fight) and ask to speak with his superior. And if they blow you off, ask to speak to theirs.
If your command goes through with your Article 15, there is an appeals process. During your reading, the commander will explain it to you. I attached a link for a brief info sheet about Article 15s.
Be honest. If you evidence, you’ll have an opportunity to present it.
Best of luck to you.
http://www.wood.army.mil/sja/TDS/article_15_fact_sheet.htm
Moving along. Without knowing the full details of your incident, please be wary of any legal advice you receive about your case on RP. In every case, there are three versions. The soldiers version, the way the Army views the incident, and then what actually happened. It’s human nature for you to put the incident in the best light. It’s the Army’s nature to want uphold good order and discipline and assume Privates are messing up. And then there’s the actual incident or event that led to your current predicament.
I don’t think your commander was just sitting around one day thinking, “how do I turn PFC Bailey’s life into a dumpster fire this month? Ahh, I know, field grade!!” SOMETHiNG had to have happened to get to this point. I always found that the privates who suddenly became a part of the ‘dindu nuffin’ tribe when it was punishment time only made it harder on themselves.
Now, retired NCO advice time. If the JAG rep said it wasn’t even a counseling worthy incident, but isn’t willing to get involved with your unit, I’d go back to jag (with one of your NCOs who thinks you’re great. You’re going to need some CAS for this fight) and ask to speak with his superior. And if they blow you off, ask to speak to theirs.
If your command goes through with your Article 15, there is an appeals process. During your reading, the commander will explain it to you. I attached a link for a brief info sheet about Article 15s.
Be honest. If you evidence, you’ll have an opportunity to present it.
Best of luck to you.
http://www.wood.army.mil/sja/TDS/article_15_fact_sheet.htm
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SPC Erich Guenther
I've done the speaking on someones behalf in a FG article 15 proceeding. I am a very good persuasive speaker too. It didn't help the end result of the case I was involved with. Usually if a LTC is determined the case moves forwards regardless of people speaking on your behalf. Though I will tell you that speaking on a persons behalf DOES influence downstream actions of the LTC. So in my case I spoke on behalf of someone that had a negative result in a urinalysis test. The LTC has the accused, myself and the whole chain of command in front of his desk as I described the chain of custody of the pizz test samples had been sloppy at best. The LTC responded to me "I know what your trying to do and it's not going to work". So the defendend lost his stripe but I will say the next pizz test was done to the letter of the regulation so it was obvious to me the LTC did listen and chewed some azz. Regardless of my testimony against the Chain of Command. My promotion was not impacted and no retribution was taken against me.........so that part was very professionally handled. So I am not trying to be a barracks lawyer here just letting you know that a determined LTC usually can't be steered by favorable comments in your defense.
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC Erich Guenther I’ve heard several cases through PNN similar to what you describe. As far as I’m tracking, none of these NCOs want to be involved in the actually legal proceedings. At that point I would just take it as my hands are tied.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - Private. Private...I have some thoughts. Even if you weren’t ‘great’, your NCO should be involved in the proceedings. You’re a private. It’s their job to take care of you, even when you’re in trouble.
Also, I’m not saying to shotgun blast every detail of your situation out on RP. Quite the opposite. However, understand that from your description of the situation, things just sound a little...off. On one hand, you say you have NCOs that think you’re great and you’re getting f*cked with baseless claims. On the other hand, those NCOs don’t want to be involved in helping you: that same, great, falsely accused soldier. See what I mean? Just a little... off.
I’m not a Hardy Boy, but I know less than full disclosure when I see it. On RP is one thing. Just understand that the advice you receive back is going to be all over the board. But when speaking to legal, 100% honesty is your best bet. That’s the best way they can help you. They might honestly say, “we can’t help, you messed up, time to deal with consequences.” But, they’re pretty clever too. And if they think you’re not being 100% straight with them, there’s a chance they might not go all out for you. Makes sense?
Just some food for thought.
Also, I’m not saying to shotgun blast every detail of your situation out on RP. Quite the opposite. However, understand that from your description of the situation, things just sound a little...off. On one hand, you say you have NCOs that think you’re great and you’re getting f*cked with baseless claims. On the other hand, those NCOs don’t want to be involved in helping you: that same, great, falsely accused soldier. See what I mean? Just a little... off.
I’m not a Hardy Boy, but I know less than full disclosure when I see it. On RP is one thing. Just understand that the advice you receive back is going to be all over the board. But when speaking to legal, 100% honesty is your best bet. That’s the best way they can help you. They might honestly say, “we can’t help, you messed up, time to deal with consequences.” But, they’re pretty clever too. And if they think you’re not being 100% straight with them, there’s a chance they might not go all out for you. Makes sense?
Just some food for thought.
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SPC Erich Guenther
SPC (Join to see) - I never had an issue with NCO's unwilling to back me up BUT the fact is, had to be a good issue and that support only goes so far as the argument isn't becomming ridiculous or beating a dead horse. They pick their battles like everyone else and you have to put yourself in their shoes, in most cases they have double your time in service and double your experience with UCMJ cases.......sooooo.
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