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There was a discussion about an airman being denied reenlistment for refusing to say "So help me God" as part of the oath, and one commenter basically said "Hey, it's a military requirement. Don't like it? Get out."
Not just with this, but with a LOT of things, I see the sentiment regardless of whether the requirement is legal or legitimate. What's the deal? The military isn't just some faceless monolith, it is us...it is people, and sometimes people do unwise, stupid, or outright illegal things. Why should we just accept it from someone of a higher rank just because we're in the military?
Got any stories where you had to deal with it? I've got one:
I was on the phone with my wife, who is German, asking her to pick me up so we could have lunch. Someone taps me on the shoulder and says "you need to speak English, SPC Walker" (This was a while ago). I turn around and say "Excuse me?" It's one of the SSGs in my platoon.
I explained I was speaking to my wife, and it was lunchtime anyway so it wasn't work related, but he didn't back down. He even tried to confiscate my cell phone. We both wound up in the SGM's office, and THAT is where I learned about AR 600-20, Chapter 4, Paragraph 13.
Not just with this, but with a LOT of things, I see the sentiment regardless of whether the requirement is legal or legitimate. What's the deal? The military isn't just some faceless monolith, it is us...it is people, and sometimes people do unwise, stupid, or outright illegal things. Why should we just accept it from someone of a higher rank just because we're in the military?
Got any stories where you had to deal with it? I've got one:
I was on the phone with my wife, who is German, asking her to pick me up so we could have lunch. Someone taps me on the shoulder and says "you need to speak English, SPC Walker" (This was a while ago). I turn around and say "Excuse me?" It's one of the SSGs in my platoon.
I explained I was speaking to my wife, and it was lunchtime anyway so it wasn't work related, but he didn't back down. He even tried to confiscate my cell phone. We both wound up in the SGM's office, and THAT is where I learned about AR 600-20, Chapter 4, Paragraph 13.
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Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 9
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Here's my issue: once you get past a certain level of rank and/or responsibility, you NEED to be able to think critically. As a more senior ranking person, you need to be able to develop your junior leaders...if you expect anyone above the rank of SGT to just execute and never ask questions......when you're not there they will be paralyzed if they run into a new situation.....
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The SSG in your example was obviously wrong, but you have to know when to pick your battles. There is no such thing as "blind" obedience in the Army. That's for the Navy. "One screw, one crew." That's why we are a Mission Command based organization...we work on intent, not task. Now...there are obvious reasons why Soldiers must be obedient. I think that's clear to everyone. There can't be an atmosphere of "blind disobedience" either. The old addage of, "We protect democracy, we don't practice it," is valid. Reference the oath issue...not sure that is a battle that should have been fought, but it was...and it is a requirement of the oath, so there you go. There are methods to get it changed. Here's where the rub comes in. No one wants to spend the massive amount of time it takes to get something like that done, so they complain about it, and lament their tortured existence in the military. Seeing their personal opinions invalidated by the system, without going through the proper process to change it, they become disgruntled and bitch some more...spreading their discontent to the masses who have the same complaints, but who have also not done the proper work to do what needs to be done. Cry me a river. Take the oath.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Sir, there must be, as I've never been required to say the phrase as part of the oath.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
I had this discussion with the LTC as he was administering the oath at a promotion to CPT. We discussed how often there is a MISTAKE in the issuance of the oath; i.e. an officer reciting the enlisted oath and vice verse. Per the conversation the only variance I saw in the officer oath was to affirm or swear and no where have I found in any regulation or reference where "So help me God" is omitted or changed.
You expect in the politically correct direction of our nation that it will get get changed once there is a supreme court case in reference to it or the media and religious anti-Semitic folks get a hold of it.
Was going to comment earlier, but could not find anywhere where at any time in the history of our nation that an "officer" wasn't required to include it.
You expect in the politically correct direction of our nation that it will get get changed once there is a supreme court case in reference to it or the media and religious anti-Semitic folks get a hold of it.
Was going to comment earlier, but could not find anywhere where at any time in the history of our nation that an "officer" wasn't required to include it.
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1SG (Join to see)
thanks CW5 Sam R. Baker I was not able to find it either. I did see where they have the option to either swear or affirm.
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The whole point of ALM/ALC 2015, Doctrine 2015 and the OE process is that the Army NEEDS Soldiers at all levels capable of critical thinking and systemic analysis. The days of mindless drones is over. We need chess players. People who can analyze a given situation and make informed decisions. This starts at the bottom.
If there is one thing that Gen. Petraus, Gen. Ward, Gen. Sinclair, Gen. Mchrystal, SFC McQueen PFC Manning, and countless others have taught us, it's that the consequesnces of our decisions do not care what rank we wear.
Critial thinking is a must at all levels.
Blind obedience has no place outside of an ant colony.
If there is one thing that Gen. Petraus, Gen. Ward, Gen. Sinclair, Gen. Mchrystal, SFC McQueen PFC Manning, and countless others have taught us, it's that the consequesnces of our decisions do not care what rank we wear.
Critial thinking is a must at all levels.
Blind obedience has no place outside of an ant colony.
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1SG Michael Blount
SFC Michael Hasbun - I am old enough to remember the Vietnam war and the Mi Lai massacre. To a man, the defendants all said they were following orders. That kind of blind obedience gets you nowhere on the battlefield. I need Soldiers who know a lawful vs. unlawful order and with enough spine to defend their actions one way or the other. I won't ask anyone do to anything I know is wrong. I expect them to ask if they have any questions. They know asking is ok. Doing the wrong thing is not - ESPECIALLY if they know it's the wrong thing.
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