Posted on May 28, 2016
A1C Cyber Systems Operations
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I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?
Posted in these groups: Atheism symbol AtheismAfp getty 511269685 CeremonyWorld religions 2 Religion
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Maj John Bell
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Edited >1 y ago
I respect and am grateful for your view on Religious expression. Unfortunately it is not universally held by some atheists and agnostic theists. Every year my wife's employer hosts a winter holiday party. Every year he wishes me "Happy Holidays". Every year I wish him "Merry Christmas". Every year he says that he runs an inclusive workplace, and that wishing people a "Merry Christmas" is exclusionary. And every year, I tell him that I was extending best wishes of me and hopefully of my God. I additionally tell him that his inclusive policy just made me feel uncomfortable and excluded because he just told me that my faith was unwelcome. Just to put icing on my efforts to be an ass, I tell him the etymology of the word "holidays" is "Holy Days". Then we don't talk again for the rest of the night. I admit I do not always behave like a good Christian.

Religion should not be a formal part of compulsory ceremonies. It should never be compulsory to listen to someone's religious expression. But, that does not mean that religion should be banned from the public square or hidden from non-compulsory sight. There is plenty of room for religious expression in uniform at voluntary events where a service member's personal story is part of the event. For instance it would be inappropriate for the government to ban or censor the prayer of a Chaplain at a military funeral at Arlington National Cemetery if the service member or their family requested it. If a service member were asked what contributed to their success in the military or what got them through a combat crap sandwich a brief expression of their faith would not be inappropriate as long as it was not a set up to guarantee that they could proselytize.

I personally find it humorous when someone is outraged by an expression of religious faith in the public square, or they go beyond their legitimate right to hold and express their own belief and feel obligated to attack the beliefs of people of faith. They feel that their attack to discredit is an expression of their faith. It isn't. Its just being a contrarian ass.
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TSgt Kerry Hardy
TSgt Kerry Hardy
>1 y
Maj John Bell - Without religion we are colonizing space and traveling to or stars. Was not world politics as the church was the rule of the land during dark ages. See Galileo Galilei about how the church handled scientific growth....

"Furthermore, it is hardly fair to lay the blame at the feet of religion for world conflict. Then as now, most conflicts are about control of resources, obtaining power, or maintaining power. People may have appropriated religion as justification for their actions, but religion was hardly the cause."

That statement proves that religion is the reason and that without it the world would be better place....
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
>1 y
What is your offer of proof that " Without religion we are colonizing space and traveling to or stars."?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science

Your antipathy toward religion has blinded you to any good and to any scientific advancement fostered by religion. Your view is at best myopic and one-sided.
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Lt Col Commander
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Maj John Bell - You are exactly right... I researched these statistics in one of my undergrad classes about 20 years ago and the numbers don't lie--absolutely undeniable that secular humanism and evolutionist thinking has directly resulted in hundreds of times more death and suffering than all "religious" death combined. Interestingly, atheists take free license to bunch all religions together to count it against God... I would add here that not all done in the name of God is consistent with the will of God -- we are still talking about people with free will... free to hate, free to kill. Jesus said many would profess to have done great things for God in the judgment and Jesus will declare He never knew them... so there are many-many false followers too. In any case, well made point by the numbers!
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Lt Col Commander
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CPT Battalion Air
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Should the rights and religious beliefs of the majority be stifled for the sensibilities of the minority? Particularly when no one is forcing anyone to pray, nor are judgements passed against those who consider themselves atheists or non-Christian. No where in the first amendment to the constitution was there a mention of a "wall of separation" between church and state. It proposed that the state shall not endorse any particular religion. I doubt that a prayer given at a military function constitutes the state endorsing any particular denomination or religion. This has been abused by many in the secular realm to abscond with the rights of th religious majority. This is frightening to me, particularly since there has been no threat to he irreligious minority from the religious majority.
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PFC Blake Hildebrand
PFC Blake Hildebrand
>1 y
CPT John Sheridan - I've been personally reprimanded and I know others in my unit that were as well for not participating. They claimed it as disobeying a direct order or something like that. I don't remember the specifics.
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SMSgt Cary Baker
SMSgt Cary Baker
>1 y
PFC Blake Hildebrand - That is over stepping. Now you have someone telling you and others to violate your religious freedom. I wouldn't have done it.
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CPT John Sheridan
CPT John Sheridan
>1 y
PFC Blake Hildebrand - Hence the reason for this discussion and the need to enforce 1st Amendment protections for everyone.

CPT (Join to see) - Should the rights and beliefs of the minority be stifled for the sensibilities of the majority? Is it a violation of your free exercise to not allow you to force others to attend your religious practice? In our culture, it seems innocuous to say "bow your heads...". What if a commander was Muslim and told the formation to face Mecca and prostrate themselves? Would that too be OK?
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
>1 y
CPT John Sheridan - You are right, it is the sad truth. They don't know and even if they say it dosen't matter, they might still treat them differently. I have seen it in reverse many times. People treated me differently for being a Christian in the 82nd sometimes for the better, other times for the worse depending on the situation.
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SGM Matthew Quick
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Edited >1 y ago
This seems like another case of an individual thinking they're bigger than the whole/organization.

If you complain loud/long enough, A1C (Join to see), sadly this will get changed.

I'm not an overly religious person (meaning I don't talk much about it or push my beliefs on anyone), but while I serve, I believe stronger in traditions than personal faith...prayer is a military tradition and if you do not like/agree with it, you don't have to serve.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
>1 y
SrA Steve Chlebowski - That's not evidence. That's just spouting crap. "Eyewitnesses"? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could convince some illiterate Bronze Age goatherders to believe a lot of absurd nonsense. Still doesn't prove there's a god.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
>1 y
SPC Corbin Sayi - "Instead, I frequently see "Athiests" who purposely disrespect head-down prayers by holding their head high and staring at everyone."

The disrespect is on the part of those who demand an atheist be compelled to bow his head. But damn right I will disrespect you for trying to illegally force me to grovel to your god.
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SrA Steve Chlebowski
SrA Steve Chlebowski
>1 y
Capt Gregory Prickett - Excellent redirection. It absolutely IS evidence. It simply does not rise to your evidentiary standard as I pointed out. We can debate the validity of the evidence one piece at a time but that was not my point. Saying there is NO evidence is intellectually dishonest. So I ask you again, what is the standard you choose to apply to secular historical evidence?
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
>1 y
SrA Steve Chlebowski - You have provided no evidence, only baseless claims. I'm more than willing to consider any legitimate evidence, but thus far, nobody has ever produced any.
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