Posted on Apr 5, 2016
Should the APFT scores be normed on factors other than age and gender?
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The APFT scores are normed by age and gender. This, to me, is sensible, as a ton of research shows that physical capacity differs across genders and age ranges.
My preferred response to this sort of question is either that the APFT needs to be normed for age and gender.
However, other factors impact physical performance. Should APFT scores be normed for these other factors?
My preferred response to this sort of question is either that the APFT needs to be normed for age and gender.
However, other factors impact physical performance. Should APFT scores be normed for these other factors?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
MAJ (Join to see)
As I considered the question, with the changes being pushed down on the military, I wondered "Should there be any normed factors? IF we are going to bring women into combat arms jobs, maybe we need to gender and age from the equation? Can one meet the requirement? Maybe instead of trying to change the factors for the pegs, we need to look at setting standards for the hole we are placing pegs? Make physical standards for the various jobs?
As I considered the question, with the changes being pushed down on the military, I wondered "Should there be any normed factors? IF we are going to bring women into combat arms jobs, maybe we need to gender and age from the equation? Can one meet the requirement? Maybe instead of trying to change the factors for the pegs, we need to look at setting standards for the hole we are placing pegs? Make physical standards for the various jobs?
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MAJ (Join to see)
I'm a big fan of identifying physical standards for jobs, and the Army is in the process of doing this. At the same time, though, on a physical capacity test like the APFT, scientifically valid norming is necessary to account for differences---and I suspect environmental norming is sensible, too---the Air Force and Marines apparently norm for elevation, why not the Army (or did I miss this somehow)?
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
The issue with "job based standards" is that you can have a Motor T guy (chosen randomly) at both an Infantry BN and a Supply BN. What score does he maintain? Since APFT is a "promotion factor" it now became easier for the same guy to be promoted based on the unit he went to, when his score is identical. It inserts Subjectivity into an Objective Measure.
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These other factors include things identified in the Triad of Fitness (sleep, nutrition, activity). They also could be things like elevation, pollution, wind speed and direction, temperature, or other environmental conditions.
I live in Ankara, Turkey, where the elevation is about 1100 meters, where pollution is pretty bad, and where its quite windy. I was previously stationed in Cyprus, which has the worst air pollution in Europe. Things like elevation hugely impact run times; in prep for my last APFT, I was struggling to break the 13:36 I needed for 100 points while running in Ankara; I took the AFPT, though, at Ft. Eustis (elevation: 3 meters) and, purely based on elevation change (and maybe pollution and a couple other factors) in literally a couple days dropped more than 30 seconds from my run time.
We live in an age where we can model just about any condition using scientific methods. Should the Army create an algorithm for APFT scores that accounts for more than just age and gender norming? For example, the Army could say a "standard" APFT is administered at sea level, on a perfectly straight and flat 2-mile course, in a location with zero air pollution, no wind, and at, say, a temperature of 62 degrees...and then build an algorithm to norm the score according to differences. We could also add things like: hours of sleep the night prior (with 9 being ideal, for example) and the average number of hours of sleep per day the previous 30 days; a nutrition factor (if a Soldier was forced to eat MREs for a month prior to the APFT, that really isn't fair to the Soldier); etc, etc.
Or is such an approach just "too hard" for the Army, meaning the non-scientific way we evaluate fitness currently is just fine?
I've previously stated that I believed that APFT scores should be required entries on evaluations. My view is shifting: I think now that I believe the Army is right, that the APFT is really just a PASS/FAIL event, and that scores aren't all that important. Maybe the Army should do away with the score concept in favor of simple pass/fail standards normed by age and gender (and maybe other environmental factors)? Especially if we aren't going to incorporate an assessment of environmental factors into scoring the APFT, I believe it should be a PASS/FAIL event and that we should eliminate the score tables in favor of simple PASS/FAIL raw scores normed by age and gender.
I live in Ankara, Turkey, where the elevation is about 1100 meters, where pollution is pretty bad, and where its quite windy. I was previously stationed in Cyprus, which has the worst air pollution in Europe. Things like elevation hugely impact run times; in prep for my last APFT, I was struggling to break the 13:36 I needed for 100 points while running in Ankara; I took the AFPT, though, at Ft. Eustis (elevation: 3 meters) and, purely based on elevation change (and maybe pollution and a couple other factors) in literally a couple days dropped more than 30 seconds from my run time.
We live in an age where we can model just about any condition using scientific methods. Should the Army create an algorithm for APFT scores that accounts for more than just age and gender norming? For example, the Army could say a "standard" APFT is administered at sea level, on a perfectly straight and flat 2-mile course, in a location with zero air pollution, no wind, and at, say, a temperature of 62 degrees...and then build an algorithm to norm the score according to differences. We could also add things like: hours of sleep the night prior (with 9 being ideal, for example) and the average number of hours of sleep per day the previous 30 days; a nutrition factor (if a Soldier was forced to eat MREs for a month prior to the APFT, that really isn't fair to the Soldier); etc, etc.
Or is such an approach just "too hard" for the Army, meaning the non-scientific way we evaluate fitness currently is just fine?
I've previously stated that I believed that APFT scores should be required entries on evaluations. My view is shifting: I think now that I believe the Army is right, that the APFT is really just a PASS/FAIL event, and that scores aren't all that important. Maybe the Army should do away with the score concept in favor of simple pass/fail standards normed by age and gender (and maybe other environmental factors)? Especially if we aren't going to incorporate an assessment of environmental factors into scoring the APFT, I believe it should be a PASS/FAIL event and that we should eliminate the score tables in favor of simple PASS/FAIL raw scores normed by age and gender.
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MAJ (Join to see)
TSgt Joshua Duplin - Yes, the AFI is very underwhelming. It should be much more giving!
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ (Join to see) - Preaching to the choir! I've said for years that the PFT only measures how well you study for the test, not how physically fit you are.
I'm extremely fit, but I doubt I'd pass the test at this stage in my life. That said, I know I could ruck folks into the dirt without a problem (my endurance is off the charts), but I'm not going to do well on the SU/PU portion because I don't focus on that portion of the test. Give me a month and I'd be fine though
I'm extremely fit, but I doubt I'd pass the test at this stage in my life. That said, I know I could ruck folks into the dirt without a problem (my endurance is off the charts), but I'm not going to do well on the SU/PU portion because I don't focus on that portion of the test. Give me a month and I'd be fine though
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1LT (Join to see)
Sir, I personally think that accommodating for "hours of sleep" the night prior or within the last 30 days is utterly ridiculous. I see where you're going with that, and I am aware of the repercussions that lack of sleep will have on your level of fitness, however, Soldiers are responsible for ensuring that they are going to sleep at a reasonable hour and not staying up until 0200 playing Call of Duty. However, I would not agree with holding an APFT after a nightfire range... common sense type stuff.
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MAJ (Join to see)
1LT (Join to see) - Fair enough, and I see your point, too. I do think we need to do more to highlight and promote the importance of sleep, though, and many times Soldiers have little to no control over the time they're given to sleep.
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is the APFT really broken? why do we strive to make it so? for the last 17 years i have heard how we need to change the APFT but not once have i seen the Army act on fixing the tape test.
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SFC (Join to see)
The tape test is about to get me flagged. I've been getting taped for years now. Im 6ft 2 and weigh 230lbs. I'm not fat though I'm just a big guy. I have a soldierly appearance in my uniforms. The Army height and weight chart wants me anorexic and goofy. The older I get the harder it is to meet the pitiful standard set by the Army.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
If you gave me a week, I could write a 10 page technical paper on how all 5 services PFT/PRT/etc are "broken" SSG Ed Mikus. It's not a knock on the Army/Marines or anyone else, but the fact that the average service member could not tell you what the actual purpose of the (A)PFT is in 2-3 sentences. That's not even getting into the intricacies of Height/Weight or Body Composition.
CC MAJ (Join to see) Capt Richard I P.
CC MAJ (Join to see) Capt Richard I P.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MAJ (Join to see) - I was actually going to shoot you a message yesterday about doing an "article" (not sure who would want to publish) on Skewed Perception of "Physical Fitness."
The general topic keeps coming up, and I've been adding notes over the last 8 months or so~.
It started with this thread.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-we-adequately-teach-running
The general topic keeps coming up, and I've been adding notes over the last 8 months or so~.
It started with this thread.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-we-adequately-teach-running
Do we adequately teach running? | RallyPoint
After I got out (several years), I became much involved in running. As I think back, I realize how little actual instruction was given in "running theory" as opposed to just "practical application" (just going for a run). Each of the services runs. Although the distances don't seem far, they are not small in the sports community, and usually the "undocumented" (non-PFT) distances exceed the "documented" (PFT) by a sizable margin. When you...
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