Posted on Mar 22, 2016
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Tell my why we should keep Soldiers in who take FOREVER with multiple attempts to qualify with their assigned weapon but chapter Soldiers out who fail TWO record APFTs in a row.
I say if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand touching the barn you need to look at other avenues of employment.
I say if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with one hand touching the barn you need to look at other avenues of employment.
Posted in these groups: 
APFT
Weapons
Standards
LeadershipNon-Commissioned Officer Professional Enhancement (NCOPE)
APFT Weapons Standards LeadershipNon-Commissioned Officer Professional Enhancement (NCOPE)
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 58
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BUT seeing as in 28 years not a single Soldier, officer, NCO, lower enlisted was ever presented to me or my NCOS that could not be taught techniques that worked for them to qualify. Id say if you have a SM that can not qualify, its either a mental/physical limitation that can not be overcome, or a leadership issue...and I lean to the leadership side
BUT seeing as in 28 years not a single Soldier, officer, NCO, lower enlisted was ever presented to me or my NCOS that could not be taught techniques that worked for them to qualify. Id say if you have a SM that can not qualify, its either a mental/physical limitation that can not be overcome, or a leadership issue...and I lean to the leadership side
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SGT (Join to see)
that's a good point- with plenty of "re-training" etc most soldiers will qualify with their assigned weapon BUT.. kneeling, prone etc at 25 meters doesn't mean that much except familiar with weapon. it's not preparing anyone for combat
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LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD
I agree. I have never failed at teaching a soldier to qualify with a weapon. Have seen a few that tested MY and my NCOs ability to train them to qualify with a weapon, but once the soldier got it...they usually were better than others...this is true. When I was in basic training...along with Joshua...I failed map reading. I just couldn't seem to get it. I was close to a straight "A" student in high school and I couldn't get it. I was nearly emotionally distraught. So, I took all the books, and all of the notes from the instructors, and got busy teaching myself a new way to explain grids, contour lines, azimuths, etc. In two weeks I was teaching my counterparts a better way to explain the map reading TM...this is a true story. What that can teach ALL of us is this. As leaders, we should only give up when there is nothing left to do...and that doesn't mean when it has reached our individual frustration level. If that happens, turn it over to another leader who has another idea. There are many leaders who developed beyond their peers due to challenges they incurred early in their careers. Who knows, you might have one...right now! My suggestion, look at the problem yourself..differently. Then use all your tools and others to help the military member overcome that shortfall. If that doesn't work...after ALL your attempts...find another field the military member might fit in. Example...if they are not psychologically or mentally challenged...(again, after all your pre-dispositions of them have been removed) find them a job they CAN qualify for...in your example..maybe as a medical corpsman or chaplain assistant. Do NOT let an individual failure prove to be YOUR individual failure even though it is sometimes a trial. You are better...and so might they be.
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PFC (Join to see)
hey what AR is it under for not being able to qual with your weapon. please email me @ [login to see] thank you!
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In the defense of those soldiers who can't qualify, I don't feel that the Army spends enough time training on BRM to use their inability to qualify as a reason to be chaptered out. Can you honestly say that the Army spends enough funding and training on beating home BRM? In the NG I'm lucky if I'm even able to get to the range to qualify once a year....in my opinion spending once a year, at most 3 days during AT to qualify is not sufficient enough for the average soldier to maintain proficiency with their weapon.
In fact the TRADOC has acknowledged that there is a serious problem with BRM training all across the Army:
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2016/03/15/army-tackles-marksmanship-shortfalls-new-training-course/81545606/
The soldiers clearly qualified at one point or another...its a requirement to graduate Basic Training. Therefore its a failure on us as leaders and the Army that they can't qualify in my opinion.
In fact the TRADOC has acknowledged that there is a serious problem with BRM training all across the Army:
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2016/03/15/army-tackles-marksmanship-shortfalls-new-training-course/81545606/
The soldiers clearly qualified at one point or another...its a requirement to graduate Basic Training. Therefore its a failure on us as leaders and the Army that they can't qualify in my opinion.
Army tackles marksmanship shortfalls with new training course
The Army is launching a new training course to fix a deficit in one of the most basic, fundamental skills of soldiering: shooting straight.
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1LT (Join to see)
Active side, they spend enough. Reserves and NG, hell no. The only Reservists I've ever seen be able to put steel on target and qualify are those that own and practice with their own personal firearms. Similar response to PT.
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1LT (Join to see)
Roger, I should've clarified that in my post. The Active component may spend enough time on it... but I know for a fact that the NG / Reserves do not spend an appropriate amount of time training on BRM.
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SFC (Join to see)
1LT (Join to see) 1LT (Join to see)
Gentlemen. I'm going to have to disagree with you in saying NG/USAR don't get enough time, and here's my reasoning.
Each year the training calendar is published for the entire year so you know when IWQ is going to happen. At unit level it should be incorporated into the unit training schedule ie: PMI etc. Everyone knows at least 6 months out when IWQ is.
Now with that being said you can not tell me that 2-3 hrs per drill period can not be dedicated to PMI in preparation. I know with all the mandatory briefings, death by PP etc does eat up a lot of time there still isn't a reason why PMI cant be plugged in.
What do you consider a "appropriate" amount of time for BRM? Enough for everyone to qualify? Enough for everyone to qualify 1st time? What is the goal/end state?
Gentlemen. I'm going to have to disagree with you in saying NG/USAR don't get enough time, and here's my reasoning.
Each year the training calendar is published for the entire year so you know when IWQ is going to happen. At unit level it should be incorporated into the unit training schedule ie: PMI etc. Everyone knows at least 6 months out when IWQ is.
Now with that being said you can not tell me that 2-3 hrs per drill period can not be dedicated to PMI in preparation. I know with all the mandatory briefings, death by PP etc does eat up a lot of time there still isn't a reason why PMI cant be plugged in.
What do you consider a "appropriate" amount of time for BRM? Enough for everyone to qualify? Enough for everyone to qualify 1st time? What is the goal/end state?
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1LT (Join to see)
Actually I can tell you that. I'm not in my RP listed unit anymore but I can speak for the fact that ALL time was eaten by mandatory trainings and the unit's mission (If you've never had the pleasure of working with a reserves support maintenance unit in a CSSB, it's a trip) 2-3 hours at a single drill MIGHT be possible if the planets align on a leap year during a blue moon month, but when client units are waiting on deadlined vehicles to be fixed and such a backlog exists because there isn't enough time 1 weekend a month to fix everything despite full-time staff breaking their backs to get things fixed throughout the month... BRM takes a backseat and Soldiers suffer if they don't practice on their own. Just like PT is an individual responsibility in the Reserve components, so to is BRM unfortunately.
As to what I consider to be an "appropriate" amount of time for BRM, our first duty as Soldiers is to find and destroy the enemy. It doesn't matter if you are cook, a mechanic, a quartermaster or SF, your job when the shit hits the fan is to put rounds on target. The only way to do that is constant training which cannot be accomplished in the Reserves components and frankly it's a huge waste of time to have BRM as infrequently as 1 drill a year. Even every other drill isn't enough. It has to be monthly/biweekly which can only be done on your own in many units. Too many Soldiers in the Reserve components treat BRM like PT and hardly do it.
As to what I consider to be an "appropriate" amount of time for BRM, our first duty as Soldiers is to find and destroy the enemy. It doesn't matter if you are cook, a mechanic, a quartermaster or SF, your job when the shit hits the fan is to put rounds on target. The only way to do that is constant training which cannot be accomplished in the Reserves components and frankly it's a huge waste of time to have BRM as infrequently as 1 drill a year. Even every other drill isn't enough. It has to be monthly/biweekly which can only be done on your own in many units. Too many Soldiers in the Reserve components treat BRM like PT and hardly do it.
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It's always bit a point of contention for me that the Army seems far more interested in our ability to run from the enemy than our ability to destroy him...
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SFC Kim Armstrong
Who says running is means to run from the enemy. It is nature of the beast to run from danger than to it. I take it you are the one that runs toward the enemy. You are the exception
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