Posted on Oct 2, 2015
"There is no more NCO business or Officer business. Just leader business." TRUE or FALSE?
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My 1SG recently put this out to the leaders in our battery. It resonated with me because I just crossed over from NCO to officer last month. I've heard differing opinions. Is this something that is evolving? Is there truly a difference? And is that difference in relation to the Soldiers and the admin portions of daily duties?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 93
CPT(P) (Join to see) Gonna have call call BS on this one LT. There are just some things that O's don't need to know about. Like where we scrounge up equipment that we are short of on the hand receipts ect. There are other things like when Joes need some special corrective training so they don't get an Art. 15. And there is O business that most enlisted just don't care about. Now when you get up there in the ranks the lines blur a lot but at your level there is NCO and O business. When I was a PSG, my CO needed some parts to fix a HMMWV and the company didn't have the money for it (pre 9/11 days). I had numerous contacts across Ft. Stewart and got the parts (nothing illegal was done). After giving the parts to my CO he asked me if he should ask where they came from. Even though I didn't have to appropriate any of them, I felt he just didn't need to know my procedures in getting them.
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SSG Erik Petterson
As former Infantry NCO, there were times Officers intruded in the execution of training, or, just felt they wanted to be a part of the "Team", be one of the "joes". And, during Combat training, they were quick to jump on the radio, and demand what was going on, before any of us in contact had made a proper assessment of the threat. The LT would contact higher (C.O.) who in turn, would contact his higher (BC) then all the unnecessary pressure was on! Every "O" wanted a piece of the action, demanding SITREP's at the expense of me and my squad. That was not leadership, that was MICRO MANAGING. I experienced more micro managing coming from among officers and senior NCOS than I saw actual "leadership". But this wasn't always the case in Combat Arms. A strong Platoon Sergeant normally kept an over eager Platoon leader in check. Now, in combat Service support, and none Infantry MOS's, I experienced among my NCO peers, this FEAR of letting officers do "anything",..which was the reverse knee jerk solution. They'd use Infantry tactical phrases, like "Stay in your lane , Sir",..which was in my opinion a bit stupid. I had some damn fine "pro active" Lieutenants who "set the example", "Set the pace", whereas, some very lazy, poorly taught NCO's were complacent, and happier being blissfully incompetent and would rather operate their platoon like a "Frat house" , pandering to the diverse eccentric personalities of their dysfunctional Platoon members, instead of putting a boot in their collective ASS's, and creating an effective fighting force among them. These NCO's were the first to cry whine and complain when an "Good Officer" was trying to fix the fucked up platoon. I saw many different scenarios of "poor leadership", and "Micro managing" from both the NCO corps and Officers. No one has a commodity on leadership. If this were true, then only acts of bravery would be allowed to come from NCO's and Officers, and basically negating any acts of bravery from among the lower enlisted. In short; no Privates would ever storm a enemy position, nor throw themselves on a hand grenade to save their Squad, as this would be "NCO/ OFFICER Business" because it falls under "leadership".
When I was still serving, there were things only an NCO can perform, some of which, an Officer didnt want to know about.
However, todays Army is full of "Baby sitters" (NCOs) of the training schedule, and "proof readers" (Officers) for the Department of the Army's "Script".
Todays Army is not a place were men lead men anymore.
Especially no distinct division of the "Baby sitting duties". What a waste to go to West Point.
When I was still serving, there were things only an NCO can perform, some of which, an Officer didnt want to know about.
However, todays Army is full of "Baby sitters" (NCOs) of the training schedule, and "proof readers" (Officers) for the Department of the Army's "Script".
Todays Army is not a place were men lead men anymore.
Especially no distinct division of the "Baby sitting duties". What a waste to go to West Point.
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Maj John Bell
SSG Erik Petterson - One of the mistakes I saw as a junior officer, was junior officers thought they were primary instructors for their platoons. The Lt talking to a bleacher with 40+ Marines
As PltLdr If the subject was non-illuminated night attack, I, the PltSgt and the PltGde reviewed squad leader knowledge and shored up if they were weak on doctrine and terminology, they did the same with their team leaders, and team leader taught their own teams. It was damn rare in my plt where the primary instructor in any fighting skills instruction was looking at more than his immediate subordinates.
As PltLdr If the subject was non-illuminated night attack, I, the PltSgt and the PltGde reviewed squad leader knowledge and shored up if they were weak on doctrine and terminology, they did the same with their team leaders, and team leader taught their own teams. It was damn rare in my plt where the primary instructor in any fighting skills instruction was looking at more than his immediate subordinates.
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CPT(P) (Join to see) - There have been several discussions on this topic on RallyPoint and I believe the majority of comments share my belief that there is a difference in the specific responsibilities of commissioned officer and noncommissioned officers. The key discriminator, in my mind, is "individual" versus "collective". NCOs deal primarily with individual issues, training, etc., whereas officers should concentrate on collective/unit issues, training. etc.
You will see that these things typically work themselves out and that your NCOs will clearly demonstrate what is in their lanes and what is in yours, despite what your 1SG stated. Have a conversation with your platoon sergeant and your company commander about this and see what their opinions are. I think you will probably see that they won't necessarily subscribe to the 1SG's comments.
One thing I do think is true about what the 1SG said is that, whether it is "officer business" or "NCO business", it is all still "leader business" and all leaders need to be engaged in the overall business of leadership. As such, an officer should not be reluctant to step into NCO business, if necessary, and vice versa. All need to work together to ensure success.
You will see that these things typically work themselves out and that your NCOs will clearly demonstrate what is in their lanes and what is in yours, despite what your 1SG stated. Have a conversation with your platoon sergeant and your company commander about this and see what their opinions are. I think you will probably see that they won't necessarily subscribe to the 1SG's comments.
One thing I do think is true about what the 1SG said is that, whether it is "officer business" or "NCO business", it is all still "leader business" and all leaders need to be engaged in the overall business of leadership. As such, an officer should not be reluctant to step into NCO business, if necessary, and vice versa. All need to work together to ensure success.
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SGM (Join to see)
COL Jean (John) F. Burleson,
I concur, sir, very well stated. Also, good advice from someone in the Commisioned side of the house, 2LT Michael Everett, can take to heart as he grows in and matured into a well groomed officer.
I concur, sir, very well stated. Also, good advice from someone in the Commisioned side of the house, 2LT Michael Everett, can take to heart as he grows in and matured into a well groomed officer.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
Col, I am not sure where you are coming from but as as E-7 flight Engineer, I felt bad if I could not handle it my self. I went to the 1/ shirt and then to the CO. One example was a 2/Lt pilot who would not listen to me. I went up the ladder and got rid of him before he killed me and my crew.
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there are clear lines of demarcation. Have your First Sergeant reread the NCO Creed.
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MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
SSG Mannix Brooks - The Army may be different. I could go to my 1/Sgt and he had no idea what my job descripition was. Shit, he did not even know how to start engines.
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CMDCM Gene Treants
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht this is really offtrack, but Navy Command Master Chiefs have a limited time to qualify in a Warfare Specialty that they did not come from if they transferred into a new command. As a Surface Warfare Specialist if I were assigned to an Aviation Command now and still on active duty I would have to Qualify at that command (ie. learn to start the engines).
That may be Navy specific, but it seems to me that if I am going to lead Sailors I need to know what they do and how they do it. I may not have been assigned to a specific ship prior to my arriving, but I sure would want to KNOW her intimately before I taught my crew about her or solved the problems of the mess.
That may be Navy specific, but it seems to me that if I am going to lead Sailors I need to know what they do and how they do it. I may not have been assigned to a specific ship prior to my arriving, but I sure would want to KNOW her intimately before I taught my crew about her or solved the problems of the mess.
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SSG (Join to see)
"Officers will have the maximum time to complete their duties. They will not have to complete mine." Says it all right there.
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CSM Felipe Mendez
CSM Heidke, I agree with your statement. When I was BDE CSM, I signed a copy of the "NCO Creed" and gave it to my BDE CDR. I told him "Sir this are my responsibilities/duties and beliefs". He kept it on his under the glass on top of his desk. Went "NCOs" came in front of him for misconduct, he will handle the "NCO creed" and asked that "NCO" which part he violated, neglected or abuse and how he is going to fix such violations/derailments. It was a hard reality for such "NCOs" specially when realizing that they have let the NCO Corp down by behaving in such manner. After such experience, I get the opportunity to talk to such NCOs and point them in direction they need to take to be back on track. Many made it back and still in the ranks as of todays and some have made it the CSM/SGM ranks.
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