GI Bill
GI Bill
Posted on Apr 18, 2015
Additional Post-9/11 GI Bill Service Obligation to Transfer Benefits Meets Involuntary Separation: Your Thoughts?
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Generally, an individual who served a minimum of 90 days on active duty after September 11, 2001, is eligible for educational assistance under the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Active duty is defined as active duty served as a member of the Armed Forces or as a result of a call or order to active duty from a Reserve Component (RC). Reserve Component Soldiers who are mobilized under contingency operations in accordance with section 688, 12301(a), 12301(d), 12301(g), 12302, or 12304 of Title 10 USC are eligible for Post 9/11 benefits.
...I would register a guess that many RallyPoint members have some % of Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits they have earned.
Now, for those who opt to transfer those benefits (to their spouse or child), the Soldier must agree to an additional 4 years service obligation.
With almost 14 years service now, and every intent to serve 20 years, recently, I transferred my benefits to my now 2-year old son.
With the drawdown, however, involuntary separations are becoming a very real thing.
Because of this, this would at least appear to be quickly becoming an increasingly relevant issue.
Promotion boards are becoming increasingly competitive. No longer are people getting promoted with P-fiche filed GOMORs/Article-15/Sub-par OERs--like they once were. What was once around a 100% selection rate to CPT, and near (but not quite 100%) to higher officer ranks, appears to be drastically reducing with the drawdown to Pre-WWII levels. Last year, the FY14 RC CPT APL board saw something around an 83% selection rate, that I was told.
Likewise, recently, I stumbled across THIS:
http://boards.law.af.mil/AF/BCMR/CY2014/BC%202014%2001562.txt
There is alot to this, however, here is a basic summary:
--This AF Major transferred his benefits to his spouse, with every intent to serve 20 years to be retirement eligible.
--He agreed to 4 additional years of service.
--He was passed over twice for Major, apparently, through no fault of his own (No derogatory information, etc). In this competitive environment, one can be a great officer and still not be promoted if he is "not-quite-as-great" as his peers. Theoretically, an officer could have (3) x ACOM OERs and (1) x COM OER, and all his peers could have all (4) x ACOM OERs, and not withstanding a ton of other variables, he likely would not be promoted. (I know, that may not "realistically" happen, but it is the kind of competitive environment we are looking at nowadays.)
--After appealing, it was decided that he must pay back over $24,000 that his wife had used of his benefits, as an "overpayment" in benefits.
What does everyone think of this?
To me, something just doesn't seem quite right here.
I can't help but wonder if there was some other kind of viable solution for him to complete his 4 year obligation (so as to not have to repay those monies back), though involuntarily separated. Perhaps being allowed to serve that 4 year obligation as an enlisted Soldier?
...I would register a guess that many RallyPoint members have some % of Post-9/11 GI Bill benefits they have earned.
Now, for those who opt to transfer those benefits (to their spouse or child), the Soldier must agree to an additional 4 years service obligation.
With almost 14 years service now, and every intent to serve 20 years, recently, I transferred my benefits to my now 2-year old son.
With the drawdown, however, involuntary separations are becoming a very real thing.
Because of this, this would at least appear to be quickly becoming an increasingly relevant issue.
Promotion boards are becoming increasingly competitive. No longer are people getting promoted with P-fiche filed GOMORs/Article-15/Sub-par OERs--like they once were. What was once around a 100% selection rate to CPT, and near (but not quite 100%) to higher officer ranks, appears to be drastically reducing with the drawdown to Pre-WWII levels. Last year, the FY14 RC CPT APL board saw something around an 83% selection rate, that I was told.
Likewise, recently, I stumbled across THIS:
http://boards.law.af.mil/AF/BCMR/CY2014/BC%202014%2001562.txt
There is alot to this, however, here is a basic summary:
--This AF Major transferred his benefits to his spouse, with every intent to serve 20 years to be retirement eligible.
--He agreed to 4 additional years of service.
--He was passed over twice for Major, apparently, through no fault of his own (No derogatory information, etc). In this competitive environment, one can be a great officer and still not be promoted if he is "not-quite-as-great" as his peers. Theoretically, an officer could have (3) x ACOM OERs and (1) x COM OER, and all his peers could have all (4) x ACOM OERs, and not withstanding a ton of other variables, he likely would not be promoted. (I know, that may not "realistically" happen, but it is the kind of competitive environment we are looking at nowadays.)
--After appealing, it was decided that he must pay back over $24,000 that his wife had used of his benefits, as an "overpayment" in benefits.
What does everyone think of this?
To me, something just doesn't seem quite right here.
I can't help but wonder if there was some other kind of viable solution for him to complete his 4 year obligation (so as to not have to repay those monies back), though involuntarily separated. Perhaps being allowed to serve that 4 year obligation as an enlisted Soldier?
GI Bill
Benefits
Edited >1 y ago
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Responses: 8
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I believe you have two questions going on here, feedback on transferring the GI bill and feedback on the situation involving the Major the transferred the GI Bill.
1. Feedback on transferring the GI Bill: I look at it like this, your successful completion of your initial enlistment secures the benefit for you as an individual, volunteering to serve longer allows you more options as to who you will share that benefit with.
2. Feedback on the Major that transferred the GI Bill: I don't know why he waited so long to transfer the benefits, seems like he knew the writing was on the wall - that he had not either performed as well as he described (three ACOMs and one COM) or that his ACOM (Above Center of Mass evaluations) were marked as such but not supported with future assignment opportunities. I believe there could be a skeleton that walks out of the closet, if you shake long enough. I had a very close friend that took very unpopular action against a senior officer and received bad paper on his evaluation as a Company Commander - he was a 16 year in service CPT when he was sent home, he went to the reserve component and made the sacrifice to move (himself) so that he could serve in an active reserve capacity until he had completed a total of 18 years of service and then applied for sanctuary....since the active and reserve records are not consolidated, he was promoted to Major in the reserve component and granted sanctuary back into the active component and retired at 20 years of service. My point is that while there is a speedbump in the way, there is almost always an exception to policy or a way to make the mission happen if the individual is still willing to lace the boots up.
General feedback: for those in the window that can transfer the benefit, I was told by a wise (very senior) career counselor that he recommends transferring at a minimum one-month of GI Bill benefits to each one of your dependents so in the event that something happens to you they will receive shares of the GI Bill benefit.
1. Feedback on transferring the GI Bill: I look at it like this, your successful completion of your initial enlistment secures the benefit for you as an individual, volunteering to serve longer allows you more options as to who you will share that benefit with.
2. Feedback on the Major that transferred the GI Bill: I don't know why he waited so long to transfer the benefits, seems like he knew the writing was on the wall - that he had not either performed as well as he described (three ACOMs and one COM) or that his ACOM (Above Center of Mass evaluations) were marked as such but not supported with future assignment opportunities. I believe there could be a skeleton that walks out of the closet, if you shake long enough. I had a very close friend that took very unpopular action against a senior officer and received bad paper on his evaluation as a Company Commander - he was a 16 year in service CPT when he was sent home, he went to the reserve component and made the sacrifice to move (himself) so that he could serve in an active reserve capacity until he had completed a total of 18 years of service and then applied for sanctuary....since the active and reserve records are not consolidated, he was promoted to Major in the reserve component and granted sanctuary back into the active component and retired at 20 years of service. My point is that while there is a speedbump in the way, there is almost always an exception to policy or a way to make the mission happen if the individual is still willing to lace the boots up.
General feedback: for those in the window that can transfer the benefit, I was told by a wise (very senior) career counselor that he recommends transferring at a minimum one-month of GI Bill benefits to each one of your dependents so in the event that something happens to you they will receive shares of the GI Bill benefit.
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I'm bothered by the "no fault of his own"statement. I'm guessing the Major knew he might not be promoted after the first pass. Historically the second look selection rate is very small. The two strikes and you're out is well known to all AF O-3s and above. His performance apparently didn't rate a Definitely Promote, so he knew he might not be promoted. He should have been prepared for the hit.
Additionally it appears he might have made the transfer after his first pass over. Can't speak to his motives for this, but it looks like he might have been trying to force the Service to allow him to stay in after his second pass.
The Major should look into enlisting to complete both his service commitment. Not sure this is still permitted, but it was in the 1980s.
Additionally it appears he might have made the transfer after his first pass over. Can't speak to his motives for this, but it looks like he might have been trying to force the Service to allow him to stay in after his second pass.
The Major should look into enlisting to complete both his service commitment. Not sure this is still permitted, but it was in the 1980s.
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir,
I hadn't thought of the possibility of him possibly leveraging the 4-year additional service obligation as essentially a means to (try) to force the AF's hand into allowing him to stay in the service 4 additional years. If this is the case, his motives for transferring his Post-9/11 GI Bill are certainly suspect.
I went back and re-read that case, though, and it's not really clear if he actually made the transfer after his first pass over, at least that I can see.
There are two things that make me think that he elected to make the transfer BEFORE he was passed over a first time. Granted, there could still be a similar motive--to essentially force the AF to stay longer--if he had made the election AFTER being passed over once (knowing he could be passed over a second time) or BEFORE his first pass over.
#1) I don't know exactly how the AF works as far as officer promotions, however, assuming similarity of process to the Army--where an officer is boarded/considered a first time, and, if failing to be selected, will be boarded immediately a year later--the timeline seems to imply that he elected to transfer his benefits BEFORE being a first time non-select.
--March 2010 -- he transferred his benefits, thereby agreeing to 4 additional years of service.
--20 April 2011 -- he was notified by his commander that he had been considered, but not selected, for promotion by the CY10D Maj Line of the Air Force Central Selection Board. (I "assume" he was actually boarded, the first time, around March 2011)
--March 2012 -- he was passed over a 2nd time for Major.
(With that timeline, it would appear that his 1st look was "March 2011"....so, it would seem that he made his election to transfer BEFORE his 1st look.)
#2) The case says that he was involuntarily separated on 30 September 2012. Up until that point, from the time of his electing to transfer his benefits (March 2010), his wife had already used 22.5 months of the benefits, accounting for some $24,000+ that he would have to repay. Coupled with the 1st point, it would seem he made the election to transfer before his first time being non-select.
Granted, there could still be the same motive at play, essentially trying to force the AF to allow him to stay in the service longer, whether he transfered his benefits after his first look (but before his second look) or simply just before his first look (knowing full-well that he could quite possibly not be selected on either his 1st look or his 2nd look).
I guess it makes me wonder, when exactly is an appropriate time for an officer to transfer these benefits? In an up-or-out promotion system--especially one in which reasons for DA centralized board non-selection are not actually provided to the individuals non-selected--transferring benefits seems to be a bit of a relative crap-shoot. It would seem that if an officer has even the slightest feeling that he/she may not be selected twice, then, using that case as precedence, it would seem a horrible decision to transfer those benefits (and, worse, actually utilizing them).
I hate to deal in "what-ifs" or extremes, but, "what-if" it was decided that we immediately had to go to an end strength of 100,000 troops. Granted, I know it would likely not be a realistic scenario that we would go THAT low, however, we are currently in the midst of dropping troop strength to historically low Post-WWII levels. It looks like even exceptional Soldiers are being separated...ones that DON'T have a P-fiche filed GOMORs/Article-15s/subpar OERs/etc.
At what point do we say that it truly was "no fault of the Soldier's own"? Is it ALWAYS the officers own fault, no matter how competitive the promotion landscape becomes, if he/she fails to promote? What if the officer has at least one "Best Qualified"/"Must Promote" OER, and isn't selected, because all his/her peers have 2 or more "Best Qualified"/"Must Promote" OERs?
...It is becoming clear that extremely active career management is becoming a necessity to survival nowadays. What if an officer does all the things required for promotion to the next rank--military/civilian educationally qualified, etc--but, still fails to promote to the next rank?
From Army HRC's website:
"Since promotion selection boards are not authorized by law to divulge the reasons for selection or nonselection of any officer, specific reasons for the board's recommendations are not known. A nonselected officer can only conclude that a promotion selection board determined that his or her overall record, when compared with the records of contemporaries in the zone of consideration, did not reflect as high a potential as those selected for promotion."
....As far as enlisting to complete his service commitment, there doesn't seem to be anything that I can find that would preclude that. Although, it does appear like the Army is still trying to figure out how exactly to handle a lot of these things...
Is there anyone here that could speak to that?
Would an officer, who was passed over twice for promotion, be allowed to serve the remainder of his/her additional service obligation (the obligation to transfer benefits) as an enlisted Soldier? What if he/she were prior service enlisted? Could he/she be separated as an officer, and revert back to his/her enlisted rank? What is the officer WASN'T prior enlisted? Would he/she still be able to enlist, once separated as an officer, to fulfill the remainder of the 4 years additional service obligation?
In a period of serious drawdown, not withstanding that MAJ own personal experience, it would seem that this all is becoming increasingly relevant especially nowadays. There may have been a time where an officer could reasonably know that he/she won't be selected PRIOR to a board occurring, however, that 'seems' to be changing.
Also, from Army HRC's website:
"Q8: What if I committed to additional service time to transfer benefits and I fail to complete the agreed upon additional service?
A8: If you fail to complete the additional service agreement, the amount of any transferred entitlement that was used by a dependent will be treated as an overpayment of educational assistance. Any benefit used by a dependent under this circumstance will be treated as an overpayment, and the VA will collect the overpayment. Unused transferred benefits will revert back to the Soldier who transferred the benefits. There are exceptions:
--By law, the above does not apply in the case of a Soldier who fails to complete service agreed to by the Soldier by reason of death, separation from active duty or SELRES due to a pre-existing medical condition determined not service-connected, separation for hardship, or separation for a physical or mental condition that was not characterized as a disability and did not result from the Soldier's own willful misconduct but did interfere with the Soldier's ability to perform assigned duties.
--The Army is exploring options for those who fail to complete their additional service commitment through no fault of their own for reasons other than listed above (e.g. involuntary separations based on promotion non-selection, Qualitative Management Program, etc.)."
I hadn't thought of the possibility of him possibly leveraging the 4-year additional service obligation as essentially a means to (try) to force the AF's hand into allowing him to stay in the service 4 additional years. If this is the case, his motives for transferring his Post-9/11 GI Bill are certainly suspect.
I went back and re-read that case, though, and it's not really clear if he actually made the transfer after his first pass over, at least that I can see.
There are two things that make me think that he elected to make the transfer BEFORE he was passed over a first time. Granted, there could still be a similar motive--to essentially force the AF to stay longer--if he had made the election AFTER being passed over once (knowing he could be passed over a second time) or BEFORE his first pass over.
#1) I don't know exactly how the AF works as far as officer promotions, however, assuming similarity of process to the Army--where an officer is boarded/considered a first time, and, if failing to be selected, will be boarded immediately a year later--the timeline seems to imply that he elected to transfer his benefits BEFORE being a first time non-select.
--March 2010 -- he transferred his benefits, thereby agreeing to 4 additional years of service.
--20 April 2011 -- he was notified by his commander that he had been considered, but not selected, for promotion by the CY10D Maj Line of the Air Force Central Selection Board. (I "assume" he was actually boarded, the first time, around March 2011)
--March 2012 -- he was passed over a 2nd time for Major.
(With that timeline, it would appear that his 1st look was "March 2011"....so, it would seem that he made his election to transfer BEFORE his 1st look.)
#2) The case says that he was involuntarily separated on 30 September 2012. Up until that point, from the time of his electing to transfer his benefits (March 2010), his wife had already used 22.5 months of the benefits, accounting for some $24,000+ that he would have to repay. Coupled with the 1st point, it would seem he made the election to transfer before his first time being non-select.
Granted, there could still be the same motive at play, essentially trying to force the AF to allow him to stay in the service longer, whether he transfered his benefits after his first look (but before his second look) or simply just before his first look (knowing full-well that he could quite possibly not be selected on either his 1st look or his 2nd look).
I guess it makes me wonder, when exactly is an appropriate time for an officer to transfer these benefits? In an up-or-out promotion system--especially one in which reasons for DA centralized board non-selection are not actually provided to the individuals non-selected--transferring benefits seems to be a bit of a relative crap-shoot. It would seem that if an officer has even the slightest feeling that he/she may not be selected twice, then, using that case as precedence, it would seem a horrible decision to transfer those benefits (and, worse, actually utilizing them).
I hate to deal in "what-ifs" or extremes, but, "what-if" it was decided that we immediately had to go to an end strength of 100,000 troops. Granted, I know it would likely not be a realistic scenario that we would go THAT low, however, we are currently in the midst of dropping troop strength to historically low Post-WWII levels. It looks like even exceptional Soldiers are being separated...ones that DON'T have a P-fiche filed GOMORs/Article-15s/subpar OERs/etc.
At what point do we say that it truly was "no fault of the Soldier's own"? Is it ALWAYS the officers own fault, no matter how competitive the promotion landscape becomes, if he/she fails to promote? What if the officer has at least one "Best Qualified"/"Must Promote" OER, and isn't selected, because all his/her peers have 2 or more "Best Qualified"/"Must Promote" OERs?
...It is becoming clear that extremely active career management is becoming a necessity to survival nowadays. What if an officer does all the things required for promotion to the next rank--military/civilian educationally qualified, etc--but, still fails to promote to the next rank?
From Army HRC's website:
"Since promotion selection boards are not authorized by law to divulge the reasons for selection or nonselection of any officer, specific reasons for the board's recommendations are not known. A nonselected officer can only conclude that a promotion selection board determined that his or her overall record, when compared with the records of contemporaries in the zone of consideration, did not reflect as high a potential as those selected for promotion."
....As far as enlisting to complete his service commitment, there doesn't seem to be anything that I can find that would preclude that. Although, it does appear like the Army is still trying to figure out how exactly to handle a lot of these things...
Is there anyone here that could speak to that?
Would an officer, who was passed over twice for promotion, be allowed to serve the remainder of his/her additional service obligation (the obligation to transfer benefits) as an enlisted Soldier? What if he/she were prior service enlisted? Could he/she be separated as an officer, and revert back to his/her enlisted rank? What is the officer WASN'T prior enlisted? Would he/she still be able to enlist, once separated as an officer, to fulfill the remainder of the 4 years additional service obligation?
In a period of serious drawdown, not withstanding that MAJ own personal experience, it would seem that this all is becoming increasingly relevant especially nowadays. There may have been a time where an officer could reasonably know that he/she won't be selected PRIOR to a board occurring, however, that 'seems' to be changing.
Also, from Army HRC's website:
"Q8: What if I committed to additional service time to transfer benefits and I fail to complete the agreed upon additional service?
A8: If you fail to complete the additional service agreement, the amount of any transferred entitlement that was used by a dependent will be treated as an overpayment of educational assistance. Any benefit used by a dependent under this circumstance will be treated as an overpayment, and the VA will collect the overpayment. Unused transferred benefits will revert back to the Soldier who transferred the benefits. There are exceptions:
--By law, the above does not apply in the case of a Soldier who fails to complete service agreed to by the Soldier by reason of death, separation from active duty or SELRES due to a pre-existing medical condition determined not service-connected, separation for hardship, or separation for a physical or mental condition that was not characterized as a disability and did not result from the Soldier's own willful misconduct but did interfere with the Soldier's ability to perform assigned duties.
--The Army is exploring options for those who fail to complete their additional service commitment through no fault of their own for reasons other than listed above (e.g. involuntary separations based on promotion non-selection, Qualitative Management Program, etc.)."
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Lt Col Jim Coe
You may be right that the benefits transfer may have happened before the first look for Maj. However the time between the board and release of results is often measured in months (3+ in my experience).
There are ways you may be able to "Devine" the possible promotion board results. Ask your commander if there's an officer at your location who recently sat on a board. Then ask that officer to look at your record and make recommendations. Some will, some may refuse. I was fortunate to have a Col who sat on a LTC board review my record when I was about a year out of consideration.
There are ways you may be able to "Devine" the possible promotion board results. Ask your commander if there's an officer at your location who recently sat on a board. Then ask that officer to look at your record and make recommendations. Some will, some may refuse. I was fortunate to have a Col who sat on a LTC board review my record when I was about a year out of consideration.
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I think it is scummy and inappropriate for the powers that be to have determined that those who earn benefits should be able to extend them to immediate family and then take advantage of the quid pro quo opportunity to get something in return. It is a saddening stipulation that communicates the foul and too often given message that even when willing to give in return for your sacrifice, it comes with additional price tag. Nothing says "You are appreciated" more than that. What really sucks is how much things like this just really cheapen both the sanctity of one's service and the value the Nation (perceptively) places on it. I could see expecting a second term from first-term enlistees, but someone who is in their third term (mid-career) or over ten years because they have re-enlisted or obligated at least 6 years beyond their first term should just be able to transfer their GI Bill to their spouse or children. I believe they have committed more than enough. But I guess we all know that it is not about the benefits at all and more just a marketing tool to improve the numbers of the service. Here I had hoped the purpose was to better the lives and opportunities of the Veteran, and thereby continue the investment in our society of those citizen volunteers who take off the uniform and still seek success rather than working go-nowhere jobs or not at all.
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