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Can you spell - G E S T A P O!!!
This new "Disinformation Panel" i.e., "Truth Panel" at the DHS is tantamount to the goals of the NAZI GESTAPO of WWII!!!
Is DHS serious that they are going to go after the speech they are defining as - called DISINFORMATION? WTHFO!!!!
My father and grandmother barely survived the holocaust, but not so for my grandfather and > 95% of my family line. The same lies about disinformation and managing "public" thought abounded then and is rearing its ugly small-minded head now from multiple arrays! Can you say Joseph Goebbels?
This person who is to head this new DHS function of seeking out so-called "disinformation" when you hear her talk sounds very Goebbels'esk in her language patterns!!! She "...fears free-speech...". Perhaps what she fears is the free exchange of the capacity to share and CHALLENGE ideas in an open marketplace of ALL ideas.
References to Goebbels and the GESTAPO:
- https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/goebbels-biography/
- https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/joseph-goebbels
- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrJSxfH7q0Q
- https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-gestapo.htm
- https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gestapo
- https://www.thoughtco.com/gestapo-4768965
As a veteran, I don't care which side of the political devide you are on, we were willing to laydown our lives to especially uphold the FIRST TWO Amendments to our precious Constitution. Having an idea and then having it challenged on its merits is - "not" a bad thing. Every day I am challenged to look at things in new ways. Every day I look deeper to fine sustainable solutions to deep challenges. This directed challenging pushes me - and I like it!!!
If one ONLY functions from a "surface" (i.e., shallow thinking) perspective and doesn't have the courage to think long and deep and outside one's warm and cuddly comfort zone about a topic, any topic, then those who welcome this new form of the THOUGHT POLICE (i.e., the modern-day GESTAPO) are COWARDS down to every cell in their bodies!!! Such people lack both honor and integrity!
If one does not have the intelligence to see BS being flung by all partisans (i.e., multiple sides of the political divide) then regardless, if you have PhD or HS Diploma perhaps, you are indeed beyond ignorant if you somehow believe this new DHS agency will not be, eventually, - WEAPONIZED - by either side in today's heat climate of mind-numbing rhetoric.
Finally, if we as AMERICANs cannot, are somehow NOT ALLOWED, to challenge hate on the right or the left from a perch of INDEPENDENT analysis (i.e., independent thought) with an expectation that such a right to do so that will be protected as the cornerstone of a FREE people then the battle is already lost and those who wish to control thought have already won. But if we value our fellow human beings and cherish healthy HONEST debate, then fighting against this new form of what will be TRYANICAL is a must, while exemplifying the requirement the "...people..." have the "...right of...peaceable assembly..." to "...petition the government for a redress of grievances...", in this case the grievance is "Who is one person or one group of unelected officials think they are to define what is or is not disinformation?" Will this new DHS function have the same Twitter-esk filters that lead to confirmation bias of desired speech and the same confirmation bias for undesired speech?
I agree some speech has practical limits, like not shouting fire in a crowded facility, just to see people scurry when there is not such an event, as the Supreme Court has already ruled. So, that leaves one with all other speech, even speech that transmits bias and prejudice. Speech I at times personally find offensive, yet speech I choose to challenge on its merits, rather its lack of merits!!! The Founders knew that once the freedom to speak, a freedom the British often worked to deny them, was not kept sacred and among the first rights that needed to be codified, they would NOT have a nation at all.
Just saying........................
This new "Disinformation Panel" i.e., "Truth Panel" at the DHS is tantamount to the goals of the NAZI GESTAPO of WWII!!!
Is DHS serious that they are going to go after the speech they are defining as - called DISINFORMATION? WTHFO!!!!
My father and grandmother barely survived the holocaust, but not so for my grandfather and > 95% of my family line. The same lies about disinformation and managing "public" thought abounded then and is rearing its ugly small-minded head now from multiple arrays! Can you say Joseph Goebbels?
This person who is to head this new DHS function of seeking out so-called "disinformation" when you hear her talk sounds very Goebbels'esk in her language patterns!!! She "...fears free-speech...". Perhaps what she fears is the free exchange of the capacity to share and CHALLENGE ideas in an open marketplace of ALL ideas.
References to Goebbels and the GESTAPO:
- https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/goebbels-biography/
- https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/joseph-goebbels
- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrJSxfH7q0Q
- https://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-gestapo.htm
- https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gestapo
- https://www.thoughtco.com/gestapo-4768965
As a veteran, I don't care which side of the political devide you are on, we were willing to laydown our lives to especially uphold the FIRST TWO Amendments to our precious Constitution. Having an idea and then having it challenged on its merits is - "not" a bad thing. Every day I am challenged to look at things in new ways. Every day I look deeper to fine sustainable solutions to deep challenges. This directed challenging pushes me - and I like it!!!
If one ONLY functions from a "surface" (i.e., shallow thinking) perspective and doesn't have the courage to think long and deep and outside one's warm and cuddly comfort zone about a topic, any topic, then those who welcome this new form of the THOUGHT POLICE (i.e., the modern-day GESTAPO) are COWARDS down to every cell in their bodies!!! Such people lack both honor and integrity!
If one does not have the intelligence to see BS being flung by all partisans (i.e., multiple sides of the political divide) then regardless, if you have PhD or HS Diploma perhaps, you are indeed beyond ignorant if you somehow believe this new DHS agency will not be, eventually, - WEAPONIZED - by either side in today's heat climate of mind-numbing rhetoric.
Finally, if we as AMERICANs cannot, are somehow NOT ALLOWED, to challenge hate on the right or the left from a perch of INDEPENDENT analysis (i.e., independent thought) with an expectation that such a right to do so that will be protected as the cornerstone of a FREE people then the battle is already lost and those who wish to control thought have already won. But if we value our fellow human beings and cherish healthy HONEST debate, then fighting against this new form of what will be TRYANICAL is a must, while exemplifying the requirement the "...people..." have the "...right of...peaceable assembly..." to "...petition the government for a redress of grievances...", in this case the grievance is "Who is one person or one group of unelected officials think they are to define what is or is not disinformation?" Will this new DHS function have the same Twitter-esk filters that lead to confirmation bias of desired speech and the same confirmation bias for undesired speech?
I agree some speech has practical limits, like not shouting fire in a crowded facility, just to see people scurry when there is not such an event, as the Supreme Court has already ruled. So, that leaves one with all other speech, even speech that transmits bias and prejudice. Speech I at times personally find offensive, yet speech I choose to challenge on its merits, rather its lack of merits!!! The Founders knew that once the freedom to speak, a freedom the British often worked to deny them, was not kept sacred and among the first rights that needed to be codified, they would NOT have a nation at all.
Just saying........................
Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945) | American Experience | PBS
Posted from pbs.orgPosted in these groups: 
World History
World History
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
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US counter propaganda efforts by the government are not anything new. It's the old problem with propaganda and counter propaganda. The very act of attempting to counter it, is by definition going to involve taking a position.
If you believe that engaging in it makes the government a bunch a fascists then I have very bad news for you about the US government in WW II. We did it all the time and concertedly. We did it in the cold war and the fact that we took our eye off that ball is now showing up in a highly divided nation influenced on both the right and the left by hostile foreign powers flooding us with propaganda to cause that division.
"Herbert Romerstein, the working group’s longest serving member, summed up the dismantling of the AMWG, “Without counterpropaganda, we’ve unilaterally disarmed.” Consequently, the U.S. presently lacks the capability to counter active measures and sustain trust in media sources."
https://warroom.armywarcollege.edu/articles/countering-propaganda-disinformation-bring-back-active-measures-working-group/
If you believe that engaging in it makes the government a bunch a fascists then I have very bad news for you about the US government in WW II. We did it all the time and concertedly. We did it in the cold war and the fact that we took our eye off that ball is now showing up in a highly divided nation influenced on both the right and the left by hostile foreign powers flooding us with propaganda to cause that division.
"Herbert Romerstein, the working group’s longest serving member, summed up the dismantling of the AMWG, “Without counterpropaganda, we’ve unilaterally disarmed.” Consequently, the U.S. presently lacks the capability to counter active measures and sustain trust in media sources."
https://warroom.armywarcollege.edu/articles/countering-propaganda-disinformation-bring-back-active-measures-working-group/
COUNTERING PROPAGANDA AND DISINFORMATION: BRING BACK THE ACTIVE MEASURES WORKING GROUP?
Using the historical case of Soviet propaganda during the Cold War, this piece shows why the U.S. needs a robust capability to counter disinformation.
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SPC Kevin Ford
CPO Nate S. -
I totally get it and we're in a deep pickle right now. We've been allowing the foreign propaganda in unchecked for a couple of decades and it has entrenched people's positions on the left and the right. The government should take an even hand and debunking what has come in to both camps, but no one will trust them to do it because the damage has been done. People will be very resistant to any indication that their deeply held belief is actually a bunch of foreign propaganda.
So let's just say Trump put something similar in place to combat foreign disinformation. I'm pretty sure I know what the reaction on the left would be. The same for Biden and the reaction on the right. We're so entrenched at this point it's going to be almost impossible for anyone to pull us out without immediately being discredited by those that want to keep us bickering.
I totally get it and we're in a deep pickle right now. We've been allowing the foreign propaganda in unchecked for a couple of decades and it has entrenched people's positions on the left and the right. The government should take an even hand and debunking what has come in to both camps, but no one will trust them to do it because the damage has been done. People will be very resistant to any indication that their deeply held belief is actually a bunch of foreign propaganda.
So let's just say Trump put something similar in place to combat foreign disinformation. I'm pretty sure I know what the reaction on the left would be. The same for Biden and the reaction on the right. We're so entrenched at this point it's going to be almost impossible for anyone to pull us out without immediately being discredited by those that want to keep us bickering.
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MSG Stan Hutchison
PO1 Jeff Chandler - On a privately owned platform, the first amendment does not apply.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
That only mentions what Congress can do. Not private enterprise.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
That only mentions what Congress can do. Not private enterprise.
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Maj John Bell
MSgt Steve Sweeney - From the linK:
In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.”
https://thehill.com/opinion/education/431719-can-schools-require-students-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#:~:text=In%201943%2C%20the%20Supreme%20Court%20ruled%20in%20West,American%20flag%20and%20say%20the%20Pledge%20of%20Allegiance.%E2%80%9D
In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.”
https://thehill.com/opinion/education/431719-can-schools-require-students-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance/#:~:text=In%201943%2C%20the%20Supreme%20Court%20ruled%20in%20West,American%20flag%20and%20say%20the%20Pledge%20of%20Allegiance.%E2%80%9D
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Even though I am liberal, I am not so sure I support the "disinformation" branch in our Federal government. It should remain to purview of the private organizations that are posting the information (or disinformation).
A side note; the OP led off with mention of "G E S T A P O!!!" then went on to write about Goebbels, who had nothing to do with that organization. He was the Reich Minister of Propaganda, a separate organization.
The Geheime Staatspolizei, (Gestapo) was a sub-unit within the Sicherheitspolizei (SiPo; Security Police), a separate and competing (for funds and Hitler's favors) organization from Goebbles' Ministry.
Just an FYI
A side note; the OP led off with mention of "G E S T A P O!!!" then went on to write about Goebbels, who had nothing to do with that organization. He was the Reich Minister of Propaganda, a separate organization.
The Geheime Staatspolizei, (Gestapo) was a sub-unit within the Sicherheitspolizei (SiPo; Security Police), a separate and competing (for funds and Hitler's favors) organization from Goebbles' Ministry.
Just an FYI
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CPO Nate S.
Godwin's Law. Right, how foolish of me.
So, are you saying that when it emanates from the right or the left the conversation stops? Of course, you are!
I would agree, the comparison to WWII and that dreadful time is something people want to forget and is - overplayed in today's heated rhetoric environment. Which begs the question - Why is it overused?
It is a convenient 'dog whistle', often used by the so-called elite (right and left) without a logical and balanced argument for its casual casting into the discussion winds. Of this I have no doubt!!!
That said, I understand that in June 2018, Godwin wrote an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times denying the need to update or amend his rule. Apparently, he rejected the idea that whoever invokes Godwin's Law has lost the argument. Seems, he went on to argue that appropriate application of the rule "should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter."
So, if that is true, the comparison to NAZI Germany should be a "...conversation starter..." then I understand why I lost so many people, they only use the words and have no substance or context with which to argue their counter- or counter-counter points. History is complicated (i.e., double edged) and many are not comfortable enough to address it head on. I get it! Yet does that mean the comparison should not be made? No, it does not!
Our government is not perfect because it is run by imperfect "human beings". For that reason, we right, left, or center of all creeds and persuasions must be able, if people choose to listen or not voice what is in our hearts or on our minds. Then have the courage to defend or retract.
Invoking Godwin's Law, is a conversation starter - does anyone else care to join in?
Personal Note: I have in the past few years received family diaries and stories that I read over and over from WWII experiences. While I appreciate your offering of Godwin's Law, respectfully, if people choose to ignore history, then that is on them! Making the comparison does not make it so or NOT so. Rather, it should be a conversation starter.
Just saying..................
So, are you saying that when it emanates from the right or the left the conversation stops? Of course, you are!
I would agree, the comparison to WWII and that dreadful time is something people want to forget and is - overplayed in today's heated rhetoric environment. Which begs the question - Why is it overused?
It is a convenient 'dog whistle', often used by the so-called elite (right and left) without a logical and balanced argument for its casual casting into the discussion winds. Of this I have no doubt!!!
That said, I understand that in June 2018, Godwin wrote an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times denying the need to update or amend his rule. Apparently, he rejected the idea that whoever invokes Godwin's Law has lost the argument. Seems, he went on to argue that appropriate application of the rule "should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter."
So, if that is true, the comparison to NAZI Germany should be a "...conversation starter..." then I understand why I lost so many people, they only use the words and have no substance or context with which to argue their counter- or counter-counter points. History is complicated (i.e., double edged) and many are not comfortable enough to address it head on. I get it! Yet does that mean the comparison should not be made? No, it does not!
Our government is not perfect because it is run by imperfect "human beings". For that reason, we right, left, or center of all creeds and persuasions must be able, if people choose to listen or not voice what is in our hearts or on our minds. Then have the courage to defend or retract.
Invoking Godwin's Law, is a conversation starter - does anyone else care to join in?
Personal Note: I have in the past few years received family diaries and stories that I read over and over from WWII experiences. While I appreciate your offering of Godwin's Law, respectfully, if people choose to ignore history, then that is on them! Making the comparison does not make it so or NOT so. Rather, it should be a conversation starter.
Just saying..................
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