Posted on Oct 15, 2016
Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says
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The certificates of this site are out of date and I won't overrule it to actually read this drivel. But the title of the article tickled me a bit.
None of the female Marines who want to graduate from IOC want the standards reduced. Few of the ones that failed out want them reduced. And none of that is relevant anyway. "He (or she) is best who is trained in the severest school." That quote is on the emblem of IOC (along with a WWI Marine sticking a bayonet into a German Soldier), it is as true now as it was in its apocryphal quote by legendary Spartans thousands of years ago. And the image on the logo is as telling as the quote:
IOC is about being able to charge across a wheat field, into a forest at the head of your exhausted, sleep-deprived, shell-shocked and injured troops, run out of ammo and then overcome a fierce enemy in hand to hand combat and jam a friggin bayonet into his chest cavity as he reaches up to stop you. Combat doesn't care about fair. It cares about super-human feats of heroism. Male or female. Task, condition, standard. Meet the standard, earn the title.
None of the female Marines who want to graduate from IOC want the standards reduced. Few of the ones that failed out want them reduced. And none of that is relevant anyway. "He (or she) is best who is trained in the severest school." That quote is on the emblem of IOC (along with a WWI Marine sticking a bayonet into a German Soldier), it is as true now as it was in its apocryphal quote by legendary Spartans thousands of years ago. And the image on the logo is as telling as the quote:
IOC is about being able to charge across a wheat field, into a forest at the head of your exhausted, sleep-deprived, shell-shocked and injured troops, run out of ammo and then overcome a fierce enemy in hand to hand combat and jam a friggin bayonet into his chest cavity as he reaches up to stop you. Combat doesn't care about fair. It cares about super-human feats of heroism. Male or female. Task, condition, standard. Meet the standard, earn the title.
Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says
Posted from marinecorpstimes.comPosted in these groups: 
Marines
Infantry Officer's Course (IOC)
Women in the Military
Training
Combat
Marines Infantry Officer's Course (IOC) Women in the Military Training Combat
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 11
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I posted this in a similar string.
I can count on one hand where my load as a Marine Infantryman met or exceeded 150lbs. One in particular was in infantry school where I had my normal load (~100lbs), platoon radio (~20lbs) and still had to put a MK-19 tripod on my back (~35lbs). Not often do you do this, but I can say for sure you do.
However, my issue with this continues to be this concept that if you meet the "standard" you're in. Being in the infantry takes more than passing a physical fitness test. Even takes more than passing the school. Infantry isn't a job. Whether you like it or not it's actually a lifestyle. Set whatever standard you want but the bottom line is that infantry is a mindset of trained killers. You are put on this earth to close with and destroy the enemy. You live, eat, and breath this every day on the Marine Infantry. It's what wins battles and keeps Marines alive. We may not carry 150lbs every day, but damn sure we carry at least half that for 24, 48, 72, or 96 hrs straight and under duress all the time. It requires a certain amount of dedication to brutality that few either posses or even what to be a part of. And now if you want to be a leader of those killers you have to be the meanest, most brutal of killers to lead by example and from the front (not the back 50%) to be not only effective at your job but looked up to by your Marines. Very few, and I mean very few, have what it takes. That's probably why we are really good at what we do. Win at killing bad guys...hell just about anything we are tasked with
The Marines aren't broke... Marines are truly a "breed" apart from others in our profession. Can we please keep it that way?
I can count on one hand where my load as a Marine Infantryman met or exceeded 150lbs. One in particular was in infantry school where I had my normal load (~100lbs), platoon radio (~20lbs) and still had to put a MK-19 tripod on my back (~35lbs). Not often do you do this, but I can say for sure you do.
However, my issue with this continues to be this concept that if you meet the "standard" you're in. Being in the infantry takes more than passing a physical fitness test. Even takes more than passing the school. Infantry isn't a job. Whether you like it or not it's actually a lifestyle. Set whatever standard you want but the bottom line is that infantry is a mindset of trained killers. You are put on this earth to close with and destroy the enemy. You live, eat, and breath this every day on the Marine Infantry. It's what wins battles and keeps Marines alive. We may not carry 150lbs every day, but damn sure we carry at least half that for 24, 48, 72, or 96 hrs straight and under duress all the time. It requires a certain amount of dedication to brutality that few either posses or even what to be a part of. And now if you want to be a leader of those killers you have to be the meanest, most brutal of killers to lead by example and from the front (not the back 50%) to be not only effective at your job but looked up to by your Marines. Very few, and I mean very few, have what it takes. That's probably why we are really good at what we do. Win at killing bad guys...hell just about anything we are tasked with
The Marines aren't broke... Marines are truly a "breed" apart from others in our profession. Can we please keep it that way?
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I think that unless you're a Marine infantry officer seasoned in leading Marines in battle, you should keep your opinions as to what is reasonable or unreasonable for a Marine infantry officer to yourself. If any Marine infantry officer thinks the standard is too high, where is he?
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From the article:
"And then there was this response; “On the regular infantry battalion side, I would challenge anyone to go to Camp Pendleton and find a platoon or company in the fleet that can meet that standard (152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph) or that is spending the time to work up to that standard.” "
Rifle (7.5lb) + 6x Magazine (2.5lb each = 15lb) = Boots & Utilities (8lb. We subtract this when weighing folks as the 'default'). That's 30~lbs right there.
ESAPI Plates (Medium), Front and Back 5.5lb each. Sides (qty 2) 2.3lb each = 14.6lbs
We're now at 44.6 lbs. That's before adding anything else, like the plate carrier, a pack, etc.
That's not including a helmet & Flak (PASGT) which was 25~lbs in the 90s era. Yes, the SAPI/ESAPI reduced that some, but we're still looking at 60~ lbs not including the pack, Just weapon, clothes, and armor.
That 152~ lb load is very to reach. Especially when you add stupid things like an Etool, bayonet, a shelter half, second set of cammies, food, and WATER (8 lbs per gallon).
I joined at 108 (graduated bootcamp at 132lbs, and averaged 135-140 while in the Fleet [3/1]). Infantry Standard is 4.0km per hour "sustained" but over 9 miles 3mile/hour is well within "burst" capability (20minute miles). I was a small guy, NOT Infantry and I have definitely hit 300lbs fully loaded. I know this because I've weighed myself in gear.
"And then there was this response; “On the regular infantry battalion side, I would challenge anyone to go to Camp Pendleton and find a platoon or company in the fleet that can meet that standard (152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph) or that is spending the time to work up to that standard.” "
Rifle (7.5lb) + 6x Magazine (2.5lb each = 15lb) = Boots & Utilities (8lb. We subtract this when weighing folks as the 'default'). That's 30~lbs right there.
ESAPI Plates (Medium), Front and Back 5.5lb each. Sides (qty 2) 2.3lb each = 14.6lbs
We're now at 44.6 lbs. That's before adding anything else, like the plate carrier, a pack, etc.
That's not including a helmet & Flak (PASGT) which was 25~lbs in the 90s era. Yes, the SAPI/ESAPI reduced that some, but we're still looking at 60~ lbs not including the pack, Just weapon, clothes, and armor.
That 152~ lb load is very to reach. Especially when you add stupid things like an Etool, bayonet, a shelter half, second set of cammies, food, and WATER (8 lbs per gallon).
I joined at 108 (graduated bootcamp at 132lbs, and averaged 135-140 while in the Fleet [3/1]). Infantry Standard is 4.0km per hour "sustained" but over 9 miles 3mile/hour is well within "burst" capability (20minute miles). I was a small guy, NOT Infantry and I have definitely hit 300lbs fully loaded. I know this because I've weighed myself in gear.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Maj John Bell - was still a conventional warfare qualification stardard when I was in. But that's the "test" as opposed to the actual Doctrine (4km/hour over ANY terrain 2.4mph). But remember we're not necessarily talking different things. A "road march" at 3.0 v "ruck march" at 2.4 may have different "technical" definitions. Ut end up being functionally identical.
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