FFRF stops religious propagation at Wisc. school - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Capt Gregory Prickett - It is so simple indeed.

1SG (Join to see) Ever think the kids have respect and manners and don't give a damn about politics!

SSgt Robert Jorgensen Well it's a good thing this isn't about politics. This is only about keeping religion out of school. Religious worship is readily available outside of school. Children should be learning at school which I think is a simple enough concept. I hope that is clear if it wasn't plainly stated previously.

1SG (Join to see) I'm pretty sure this was not done during school hours and was done after school. So the kids were learning both during and after, not to mention how a group that doesn't help out can screw them out of service to a good cause.

Capt Gregory Prickett - "Integrated" was the wrong word. Noted.

The Christian influence and presence is undeniable.

The Declaration appeals to God as the giver of our rights, enscinced in the Constitution as the gurantor of the same. Washington declaring a National Day of Prayer...later affirmed by Lincoln. The Northwest Ordinance. Presence of praywr to start legislative sessions. Chaplains. Preaidents call on the nation to pray during times of crisis. Thanksgiving. Madison, the father of the Constitution, who had designs on being a pastor. John Jay, first Chief Justice, becoming the first preaident of the American Bible Society.

My point is...hiw did we go from that society, where God was freely and openly acknowledged and invited, to a place where kids cannot join a local charity in its effort.

Again the question: how? What happened that we are now here instead of there, irrespective of where anyone thinks we should be. We are here, not there. How?

That is the question I am asking. Unless I've missed it, I haven't heard an answer to that question.

Thanks.

SGT Mark Halmrast You won't get one from Prickett, you got him on the fence and he'll do his double talk and not say anything.

Thank you.
You are agreeing, then, that there has been movement, that at one point we were at place X and today we are at place Y. Good!

And you are saying the application of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, via the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection clause, is the vehicle by which we moved from a place where God was regularly invoked to where we are today with the school kids helping at the charity. Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

As a side note, surely you are not saying the Founders, who authored the Free Exercise of religion clause of the First Amendment, did not advocate for religion to be expunged from civic life?

Quote from the Northwest Ordinance: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." It sounds very much like the Second Congress had no problem advocating for religion in civic life.

(Deism does not contemplate "providence", nor prayer; the Declaration appeals to a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence", and Washington maintained a book of prayers.)

Again, thanks for the civil exchange. Could we talk like this in a government building today? Or is religion off topic on state property? A lighthearted question, to be clear.

It seems to me we have moved, but perhaps not in the way you describe.

Given:
- the document that laid the conceptual foundation of our nation invoked God
- the first action in Congress was to pray, and
- our first president, in his farewell address to the nation, cited the vital importance of religion in civic society...

Given just those three, among many, starting points, it seems like we have indeed come a long ways to the place where elementary school kids can no longer pack food to feed kids around the world at a faith-based charity because they were given t-shirts with a silk-screened cross in the logo of the corporate sponsor, and the charity invited prayer.
We have indeed come a long way.

And now, having held my answer to give you full space to express yours, I will share how I think we got here: intimidation.

We got here by intimidation. Organizations using the threat of costly law suits to cower otherwise well-meaning organizations into submission.

This is not "separation of church and state." It is expunging even the aroma of faith from the most casual brush in the passing of civic affairs.

We both served in order to protect the right to express our opinions. Thank you for your service, sir, and while I disagree with you, I respect your right to hold your view.

Perhaps were we to meet we would grab a beer, cigar, and a double shot of Jack and continue this conversation.

With respect.

Agreed.