Posted on Jul 31, 2019
Andrew Seidel: The Greatest Story Ever Sold: America's Judeo-Christian Heritage
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There are many levels to this, but I'll simplify it as best I can (which unfortunately, doesn't mean I'll be short). First, there are people who haven't explored the nation's history much beyond what they learned during their education. If they are more senior people, they have one view...younger, another; based entirely on how curriculum (and values) changed over the decades. Second, there are people who are knowledgeable, but recalcitrant when encountering information that challenges their assumptions. If they want to believe that in some part, the nation was founded on "Christian" principles, they'll find it in the personal anecdotes of the Founding Fathers, and in specific word use within the Constitution, etc. However, if they want to believe that the reverse is true...they use much the same method to re-enforce their beliefs. Finally, there are those who consider the facts to be independent from their own personal views; I'd like to believe I fall into this last category.
It doesn't actually make any difference to me whether the United States was founded on "Christian" principles, or not...I'm a Christian, and those principles define my views regardless. As long as I believe that (more on this in a moment), then my ultimate loyalties are to God, since He...not my country, determines my eternal fate. It would be "nice" if my nation followed suit, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be a Christian.
For this reason, I'm sometimes confused as to why some people of diverging beliefs (or the absence thereof) seem so dedicated to definitively proving which is the case. I presume that the reasons are similar to those governing my own attempts at pointing out the limits of American government when it comes to religion, as defined by the Constitution. We both probably fear oppression at some level. Some Christians fear that if the USA permanently and completely divorces itself from the cultural significance of the Judeo-Christian faith, it won't be long before our beliefs are criminalized and punished. Perhaps those on the other side have similar fears so long as Christian ideology is referenced when setting policies and enacting legislation...particularly since culturally, we seem to be moving further away from those values.
My sole counterpoint to those fears is that in nearly two and a half centuries, we've seen no wide-scale, organized, legally-supported persecution of non-Christians in the USA. If that sounds like an inaccurate statement, I would offer that the metrics defining any such persecution would have to be based on comparable actions against other groups...such as the slaughter of Armenian Christians by the Turks, the genocide of the Jews under the Nazi regime, the systematic atrocities committed by groups such as ISIS...or the persecution of religious groups in China. Even if we want to establish that being denied employment, public office, or civil rights definitely "count" (I think they do), we currently have laws on the books preventing all of the above...
...though I've heard a few "fringe" voices suggest that if you're a traditionally-minded Christian, perhaps some, or all of the above should be denied.
Ultimately, I do not believe the Founding Fathers "based our laws" on Judeo-Christian principles; I think they used the principles of the Enlightenment. However, they were representative of a population that was, as a matter of historical and cultural fact, predominantly, and rigorously "Christian". Whatever their personal views or motivations, the ambiguous way in which they handled the issue probably saved our revolution from going the way of subsequent revolts in France and Russia. I read somewhere that much of the colonial population didn't initially support the Revolution, and thousands of loyalist fled the country after the War. If an open attempt at sanitizing Christianity from our founding had been made public...we'd probably still be drinking the Queen's health.
Getting back to my own beliefs, and what I personally think is at stake; I presume that for those who don't subscribe, the idea is that over time, given enough "education" and challenge...Christianity will naturally dilute itself into extinction. To that, I offer that a more pragmatic approach would be to accept the unique privileges afforded to both "sides" by the 1st Amendment. Two millennia of Christian history...and several more (at least) of Hebrew theology before that, coupled with the nearly parallel rise of Islam, indicates that for the foreseeable future at least...faith will continue to be a part of our society.
It doesn't actually make any difference to me whether the United States was founded on "Christian" principles, or not...I'm a Christian, and those principles define my views regardless. As long as I believe that (more on this in a moment), then my ultimate loyalties are to God, since He...not my country, determines my eternal fate. It would be "nice" if my nation followed suit, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be a Christian.
For this reason, I'm sometimes confused as to why some people of diverging beliefs (or the absence thereof) seem so dedicated to definitively proving which is the case. I presume that the reasons are similar to those governing my own attempts at pointing out the limits of American government when it comes to religion, as defined by the Constitution. We both probably fear oppression at some level. Some Christians fear that if the USA permanently and completely divorces itself from the cultural significance of the Judeo-Christian faith, it won't be long before our beliefs are criminalized and punished. Perhaps those on the other side have similar fears so long as Christian ideology is referenced when setting policies and enacting legislation...particularly since culturally, we seem to be moving further away from those values.
My sole counterpoint to those fears is that in nearly two and a half centuries, we've seen no wide-scale, organized, legally-supported persecution of non-Christians in the USA. If that sounds like an inaccurate statement, I would offer that the metrics defining any such persecution would have to be based on comparable actions against other groups...such as the slaughter of Armenian Christians by the Turks, the genocide of the Jews under the Nazi regime, the systematic atrocities committed by groups such as ISIS...or the persecution of religious groups in China. Even if we want to establish that being denied employment, public office, or civil rights definitely "count" (I think they do), we currently have laws on the books preventing all of the above...
...though I've heard a few "fringe" voices suggest that if you're a traditionally-minded Christian, perhaps some, or all of the above should be denied.
Ultimately, I do not believe the Founding Fathers "based our laws" on Judeo-Christian principles; I think they used the principles of the Enlightenment. However, they were representative of a population that was, as a matter of historical and cultural fact, predominantly, and rigorously "Christian". Whatever their personal views or motivations, the ambiguous way in which they handled the issue probably saved our revolution from going the way of subsequent revolts in France and Russia. I read somewhere that much of the colonial population didn't initially support the Revolution, and thousands of loyalist fled the country after the War. If an open attempt at sanitizing Christianity from our founding had been made public...we'd probably still be drinking the Queen's health.
Getting back to my own beliefs, and what I personally think is at stake; I presume that for those who don't subscribe, the idea is that over time, given enough "education" and challenge...Christianity will naturally dilute itself into extinction. To that, I offer that a more pragmatic approach would be to accept the unique privileges afforded to both "sides" by the 1st Amendment. Two millennia of Christian history...and several more (at least) of Hebrew theology before that, coupled with the nearly parallel rise of Islam, indicates that for the foreseeable future at least...faith will continue to be a part of our society.
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"Two millennia of Christian history...and several more (at least) of Hebrew theology before that, coupled with the nearly parallel rise of Islam, indicates that for the foreseeable future at least...faith will continue to be a part of our society".
Is there a particular reason why you left out Hinduism? It pre-dates both Islam and Christianity. The length of time with which something is believed does not add to it's truth value. It could be believed for another 10,000 years and be false. Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in things without evidence or good reasons. If they had good reasons or evidence, they wouldn't require faith. It is a lazy way of thinking in my opinion and unfortunately I agree that a portion of our society will continue to use faith. I am relieved (a little) that the non-religious numbers are increasing.
Is there a particular reason why you left out Hinduism? It pre-dates both Islam and Christianity. The length of time with which something is believed does not add to it's truth value. It could be believed for another 10,000 years and be false. Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in things without evidence or good reasons. If they had good reasons or evidence, they wouldn't require faith. It is a lazy way of thinking in my opinion and unfortunately I agree that a portion of our society will continue to use faith. I am relieved (a little) that the non-religious numbers are increasing.
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LCDR Joshua Gillespie
No particular reason...other than the discussion is focusing on "America's Judeo-Christian heritage"; and I don't think anyone can successfully make the case that Jefferson, Adams, and Washington were broadly considering the Bhagavad Gita when discussing the subject.
Now, since we've debated before, I won't take the comments on laziness or excuses personally-I get what your saying, but respectfully, there's much more to it than that.
As I'm certain you are aware, Christianity and Islam emerge from ancient Hebrew theology. Academically, that takes us back to at least 1200 B.C., and perhaps as early as 3000 B.C., given that it's widely assumed Abraham was in fact, a Sumerian. Ecumenically, we claim (just like Hinduism) that the Scriptures go back to the very beginning of time, as passed down by oral tradition...so, again, just like any other faith, we can't get hung up too much on dates.
As to reason making faith superfluous, consider this...can humans actually know "everything"? I don't have to work too hard to come up with a list of things we can't observe or experiment upon with enough certainty to arrive at more than educated guesses. Science assumes there's no afterlife because it cannot be observed (at least not with any definition). We have theorized everything up to the very nanosecond of "being"...but I've yet to hear anyone satisfactorily provide, in detail, a secular explanation for what existed prior to that moment. We have many theories on how life evolved on this planet...but no clear answer (beyond a mathematical estimation) on what life may exist beyond our solar system...and how it may have developed. In all of these, and more, I see another form of "faith"...albeit based on trust in interpolation of data, as opposed to interpolation of theology.
To be perfectly honest, faith is one side of the spiritual coin-this "interpolation" is another. To assume that I, or any person of faith, regardless of which faith that is, doesn't also look for "reason" among the rote...is to somewhat "miss the point" of religion. For example, when Christ said, "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also" there is a great deal to unpack there. What is a "little while"; a day, month, two thousand years? What is meant by "living", when each of the Apostles did indeed die a physical death...some, not all that long after these words were spoken? It's not that Christians are so ignorant as to ignore the obvious logical problem...but that taken as a whole, it's fairly easy to conclude that Christ is talking about more than mortal life. Whereas one person may choose to look at this as "proof" of scriptural fallacy...another uses it as the way to arrive at a deeper understanding of just what Christ's message really was.
As to who will outnumber who in the end, again...to me that is irrelevant. It would be nice if everyone could see the potential for tragedy should we not at some point, "agree to disagree", but with nothing less than eternity on the line...it's unlikely that religion will succumb to something as trivial as being the minority. In the meantime, I'm thankful that the Founding Fathers at least had the wisdom to make provision for the freedom of conscience, as well as the freedom to debate these issues peacefully.
Thanks again for a great discussion.
Now, since we've debated before, I won't take the comments on laziness or excuses personally-I get what your saying, but respectfully, there's much more to it than that.
As I'm certain you are aware, Christianity and Islam emerge from ancient Hebrew theology. Academically, that takes us back to at least 1200 B.C., and perhaps as early as 3000 B.C., given that it's widely assumed Abraham was in fact, a Sumerian. Ecumenically, we claim (just like Hinduism) that the Scriptures go back to the very beginning of time, as passed down by oral tradition...so, again, just like any other faith, we can't get hung up too much on dates.
As to reason making faith superfluous, consider this...can humans actually know "everything"? I don't have to work too hard to come up with a list of things we can't observe or experiment upon with enough certainty to arrive at more than educated guesses. Science assumes there's no afterlife because it cannot be observed (at least not with any definition). We have theorized everything up to the very nanosecond of "being"...but I've yet to hear anyone satisfactorily provide, in detail, a secular explanation for what existed prior to that moment. We have many theories on how life evolved on this planet...but no clear answer (beyond a mathematical estimation) on what life may exist beyond our solar system...and how it may have developed. In all of these, and more, I see another form of "faith"...albeit based on trust in interpolation of data, as opposed to interpolation of theology.
To be perfectly honest, faith is one side of the spiritual coin-this "interpolation" is another. To assume that I, or any person of faith, regardless of which faith that is, doesn't also look for "reason" among the rote...is to somewhat "miss the point" of religion. For example, when Christ said, "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also" there is a great deal to unpack there. What is a "little while"; a day, month, two thousand years? What is meant by "living", when each of the Apostles did indeed die a physical death...some, not all that long after these words were spoken? It's not that Christians are so ignorant as to ignore the obvious logical problem...but that taken as a whole, it's fairly easy to conclude that Christ is talking about more than mortal life. Whereas one person may choose to look at this as "proof" of scriptural fallacy...another uses it as the way to arrive at a deeper understanding of just what Christ's message really was.
As to who will outnumber who in the end, again...to me that is irrelevant. It would be nice if everyone could see the potential for tragedy should we not at some point, "agree to disagree", but with nothing less than eternity on the line...it's unlikely that religion will succumb to something as trivial as being the minority. In the meantime, I'm thankful that the Founding Fathers at least had the wisdom to make provision for the freedom of conscience, as well as the freedom to debate these issues peacefully.
Thanks again for a great discussion.
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