Posted on Jul 23, 2019
Think Republicans are disconnected from reality? It's even worse among liberals | Arlie...
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I have no doubt that both sides are being misrepresented but who's fault is that, usually the media, who sensationalize everything and blow even the smallest story up if it fits their agenda. I also think that both parties in general are out of touch with their basic rank and file people.
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Interesting read, although still a little bit loaded with skewed perceptions of conservatives on liberal issues. You're right, one should converse with people they disagree with. But most of all and what is key, is to listen to those people as well. Don't assume, don't judge, and try to understand where they might be coming from. As you said, you can debate back and forth with the conservatives on this forum and you will never change their minds (nor will they change yours). No offense, but you do have a habit of automatically assuming one is a Trump supporter simply because he or she supports something Trump does. It is possible to not like Trump as a person and a political speaker, but still appreciate some of his accomplishments (and even choose to vote for him). My own disdain for Trump came long before he was President. This pretty much started when I decided to watch The Apprentice on the suggestion of one of my senior officers. It was an interesting view of group/team dynamics, but ultimately I could see Trump was rigging the outcome to keep the drama going for entertainment value when he probably had his winner in mind from day one. I still see this today and all the Trump-haters continue to fall for it. He drums up the drama, the Trump-haters take the bait, and pretty soon he has his base defending him for something which has been annoying conservatives for some time.
Immigration is a perfect example. Democrats, not long ago, even got on their own soap box and made the same statements Trump is saying today. But today it is considered racist and anti-immigration. Why? Because Liberals think he's racist? Maybe he is maybe not, but that does not make me racist or anti-immigration to agree with him on tightening the security on the border and revising the rules to return to a merit-based system with limited numbers from the family. My realistic conservative values prompt me to want those who want to be a productive part of the US, not those who simply want to create another niche of their own country. When I worked to help my own Afghan Interpreter get his SIV, I sat down with him and advised him to continue to get educated, get a good job (and that I'd kill him if I found him working in a McDonald's-like job), and to be a part of this country (i.e. just don't go find a group of Afghans and only hang out with then). I'm proud to say he's earned his college degree and I'm currently helping him find a job in IT. He earned his way into the US and has continued to earn what he has today. Needless to say, I am extremely proud of him.
Although the article highlights many common ground areas between liberals and conservatives it also only highlighted the liberal positions. I think it also only touches the surface with the conservative approach to things like climate change, racial tensions, and government freebies. A significant number of conservatives don't necessarily dismiss these ideas, they just don't believe they are as pressing an issue or something enumerated in the Constitution making it the Federal Government's responsibility. Trump sort of highlighted this (in his own annoying way) with a recent jab on straws, which as you know became a center of controversy between environmentalists and everyone "else" they would say just don't care. What does he do? He started selling Trump straws on his campaign sight to essentially say this is not a pressing issue which the US is going to fix alone (especially when we are not the main contributors to the issue). While I don't like his method, I tend to see his point... We have bigger problems to solve and yet this becomes a national issue? How about the heroine problems, homeless, roads, our international threats, cyber, etc... There's so much going on and we're going to whine about straws? Just the other day in Denver I happened to pass by a protest against "male genital mutilation" (i.e. the practice of circumcision). The irony was, I noted there were more women leading the protest than men.
Getting back to the articles issues, let's take Climate change/Environmentalism to start with. I would argue most conservatives believe is conservationism, specifically the wise use of natural resources. There needs to be a slow and measured approach to moving into clean energy, allowing the economy to keep up with it and the work force to sustain it properly. But when you have someone like AOC or Gore claiming the world is coming to an end in 12 years, it makes it hard to take several liberal seriously. I won't deny we can affect the environment around us, but I'm sure liberals and I would differ on how much and I would also need to see a realistic and sustainable solution which doesn't place the US in a poor economic position.
Racial tensions is another area where many on the left are working hard to make the claim that conservatives are racist and bigoted. They also refuse to account for their own history and instead try to suggest Democrats were not the same as they are today. I'm willing to believe that they've changed, but it doesn't mean that all the racist people simply jumped parties. I don't accept that as it contradicts my own conservative beliefs, but regardless, I've seen plenty of racists people from both sides of the political spectrum. I also believe the left is doing more to desensitize racial issues by making a significant more number of false claims and racist/sexist/homophobic accusations than there really are. Then when it really happens, it becomes harder for people to agree that it has. That's what frustrates me because the immediate world I live in, includes friends, co-workers, and family of various backgrounds, and I wouldn't have it any other way. And yet I am considered racist for continuing to be a conservative (I'm sure it doesn't help that I am a white male too). This is where when people assume with little to know understanding of another's perspectives, they contribute to the animosity and racial tensions.
Finally on government freebies... Even I know most liberals know this is not truly free. But I have also recognized they have not been able to competently articulate how we can realistically pay for and sustain things like free health care and college education. Furthermore, as I alluded to earlier, it's not that conservatives don't want to find ways to get easier access to these important services, we just don't believe this is the primary role of the Federal Government, as stated in our Constitution. This isn't to say we shouldn't try, but if they were to tell me we need to downsize the military (which providing for a military IS an enumerated power in the Constitution) for the purpose of making these other things happen, they've lost me. If they think taxing the rich more will solve the problem, they've lost me again. There is only so much you can take before you affect innovations and jobs which, in turn, jeopardizes one of the things that make the US great. A free college education isn't going to do much good when there are fewer jobs to hire these graduates.
Another point the article highlighted, which I very much agree with, is the concept of group speak. I think most would agree as the article pointed out, that more liberals tend to live closer in mass together/among each other than you'll find with conservatives. Think about where the liberal strongholds are... big cities. But when you get away from these cities, you'll find the country becoming more pink to red (denoting more conservative perspectives). I would even argue that although the article speaks of how the more educated the liberal is, the less they understand the conservative perspectives, I would be willing to bet that those liberals (to include the highly educated ones) that live outside the cities among conservatives probably understand us better (and tend to agree on more too). You'll also find that they are better able to carry on civil political discussions too.
Personally I've lived in big cities, small ones, small towns, overseas in third world countries, and in much more developed ones (I've been around the world pretty much). I don't for one second want to say I understand liberals, but I do try to figure out where they are coming from and what possible life experiences led them to those perspectives. Like you I also look at the political memes that my friends and people on RP post and tend to think they are either just being satirical or they simply aren't educated enough on what they are posting. I have called out folks on both sides when they post inaccurate things (including you) and I always try to point out the other perspectives to give people pause. In the end, I will include my conservative perspectives, not to convince someone like you to change your mind, but to ensure that others who are trying to understand an issue see both perspectives. Nothing is personal and unless that person disrespects me or others, I usually don't think any less of them simply for having a liberal mindset.
Immigration is a perfect example. Democrats, not long ago, even got on their own soap box and made the same statements Trump is saying today. But today it is considered racist and anti-immigration. Why? Because Liberals think he's racist? Maybe he is maybe not, but that does not make me racist or anti-immigration to agree with him on tightening the security on the border and revising the rules to return to a merit-based system with limited numbers from the family. My realistic conservative values prompt me to want those who want to be a productive part of the US, not those who simply want to create another niche of their own country. When I worked to help my own Afghan Interpreter get his SIV, I sat down with him and advised him to continue to get educated, get a good job (and that I'd kill him if I found him working in a McDonald's-like job), and to be a part of this country (i.e. just don't go find a group of Afghans and only hang out with then). I'm proud to say he's earned his college degree and I'm currently helping him find a job in IT. He earned his way into the US and has continued to earn what he has today. Needless to say, I am extremely proud of him.
Although the article highlights many common ground areas between liberals and conservatives it also only highlighted the liberal positions. I think it also only touches the surface with the conservative approach to things like climate change, racial tensions, and government freebies. A significant number of conservatives don't necessarily dismiss these ideas, they just don't believe they are as pressing an issue or something enumerated in the Constitution making it the Federal Government's responsibility. Trump sort of highlighted this (in his own annoying way) with a recent jab on straws, which as you know became a center of controversy between environmentalists and everyone "else" they would say just don't care. What does he do? He started selling Trump straws on his campaign sight to essentially say this is not a pressing issue which the US is going to fix alone (especially when we are not the main contributors to the issue). While I don't like his method, I tend to see his point... We have bigger problems to solve and yet this becomes a national issue? How about the heroine problems, homeless, roads, our international threats, cyber, etc... There's so much going on and we're going to whine about straws? Just the other day in Denver I happened to pass by a protest against "male genital mutilation" (i.e. the practice of circumcision). The irony was, I noted there were more women leading the protest than men.
Getting back to the articles issues, let's take Climate change/Environmentalism to start with. I would argue most conservatives believe is conservationism, specifically the wise use of natural resources. There needs to be a slow and measured approach to moving into clean energy, allowing the economy to keep up with it and the work force to sustain it properly. But when you have someone like AOC or Gore claiming the world is coming to an end in 12 years, it makes it hard to take several liberal seriously. I won't deny we can affect the environment around us, but I'm sure liberals and I would differ on how much and I would also need to see a realistic and sustainable solution which doesn't place the US in a poor economic position.
Racial tensions is another area where many on the left are working hard to make the claim that conservatives are racist and bigoted. They also refuse to account for their own history and instead try to suggest Democrats were not the same as they are today. I'm willing to believe that they've changed, but it doesn't mean that all the racist people simply jumped parties. I don't accept that as it contradicts my own conservative beliefs, but regardless, I've seen plenty of racists people from both sides of the political spectrum. I also believe the left is doing more to desensitize racial issues by making a significant more number of false claims and racist/sexist/homophobic accusations than there really are. Then when it really happens, it becomes harder for people to agree that it has. That's what frustrates me because the immediate world I live in, includes friends, co-workers, and family of various backgrounds, and I wouldn't have it any other way. And yet I am considered racist for continuing to be a conservative (I'm sure it doesn't help that I am a white male too). This is where when people assume with little to know understanding of another's perspectives, they contribute to the animosity and racial tensions.
Finally on government freebies... Even I know most liberals know this is not truly free. But I have also recognized they have not been able to competently articulate how we can realistically pay for and sustain things like free health care and college education. Furthermore, as I alluded to earlier, it's not that conservatives don't want to find ways to get easier access to these important services, we just don't believe this is the primary role of the Federal Government, as stated in our Constitution. This isn't to say we shouldn't try, but if they were to tell me we need to downsize the military (which providing for a military IS an enumerated power in the Constitution) for the purpose of making these other things happen, they've lost me. If they think taxing the rich more will solve the problem, they've lost me again. There is only so much you can take before you affect innovations and jobs which, in turn, jeopardizes one of the things that make the US great. A free college education isn't going to do much good when there are fewer jobs to hire these graduates.
Another point the article highlighted, which I very much agree with, is the concept of group speak. I think most would agree as the article pointed out, that more liberals tend to live closer in mass together/among each other than you'll find with conservatives. Think about where the liberal strongholds are... big cities. But when you get away from these cities, you'll find the country becoming more pink to red (denoting more conservative perspectives). I would even argue that although the article speaks of how the more educated the liberal is, the less they understand the conservative perspectives, I would be willing to bet that those liberals (to include the highly educated ones) that live outside the cities among conservatives probably understand us better (and tend to agree on more too). You'll also find that they are better able to carry on civil political discussions too.
Personally I've lived in big cities, small ones, small towns, overseas in third world countries, and in much more developed ones (I've been around the world pretty much). I don't for one second want to say I understand liberals, but I do try to figure out where they are coming from and what possible life experiences led them to those perspectives. Like you I also look at the political memes that my friends and people on RP post and tend to think they are either just being satirical or they simply aren't educated enough on what they are posting. I have called out folks on both sides when they post inaccurate things (including you) and I always try to point out the other perspectives to give people pause. In the end, I will include my conservative perspectives, not to convince someone like you to change your mind, but to ensure that others who are trying to understand an issue see both perspectives. Nothing is personal and unless that person disrespects me or others, I usually don't think any less of them simply for having a liberal mindset.
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CMSgt (Join to see)
Enjoyed reading this much more than the article in the link. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
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SPC Kevin Ford
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin Thanks for the reply. And you are correct that I assume someone is a Trump supporter if they vote for him. Not so much on just supporting something he does as I've even made positive comments on things he's done. But at this point I believe any further votes for him would make the voter complicit in what he is doing as there should be no confusion, at this point, as to what he is doing.
So if you wonder why I act that way, there it is.
I understand things like conservatives not believing that things like universal healthcare being in the role of government. If that were their normal argument, it would be a great intellectual discussion. Unfortunately, the normal discussion isn't about that; it's things like it doesn't work, the quality of care is lower, it's more expensive. Those things are much less supportable. Since that is the ground many choose to defend, that ends up being where the discussion is.
On the racism thing, the Democrat and Republican people didn't change, the parties did. People just switched what party they supported. That all happened before either one of us were likely politically active. A party isn't a person, but just an ever changing collection of people. It certainly doesn't mean that all or even most Republicans have been racist since then, it just means if you are racist you are more likely a Republican now and 60+ years ago, those same people were most likely Democrats.
What is going on now is a thornier issue. Most Democrats I have met think Trump is clearly and openly racist. When you come from that starting point and a person says, "I'm voting for Trump next election", it leads to certain conclusions.
So if you wonder why I act that way, there it is.
I understand things like conservatives not believing that things like universal healthcare being in the role of government. If that were their normal argument, it would be a great intellectual discussion. Unfortunately, the normal discussion isn't about that; it's things like it doesn't work, the quality of care is lower, it's more expensive. Those things are much less supportable. Since that is the ground many choose to defend, that ends up being where the discussion is.
On the racism thing, the Democrat and Republican people didn't change, the parties did. People just switched what party they supported. That all happened before either one of us were likely politically active. A party isn't a person, but just an ever changing collection of people. It certainly doesn't mean that all or even most Republicans have been racist since then, it just means if you are racist you are more likely a Republican now and 60+ years ago, those same people were most likely Democrats.
What is going on now is a thornier issue. Most Democrats I have met think Trump is clearly and openly racist. When you come from that starting point and a person says, "I'm voting for Trump next election", it leads to certain conclusions.
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SPC Kevin Ford
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin BTW, Kevin, if you would like to have a discussion about the philosophical issues around role of the government, tax policy it's impact on the economy, role and size of the military, etc I'd love that. I sometimes get tired of the grind of day to day political disagreements that deal with people and personalities. There seem to be very few opportunities for pure policy discussions.
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Thanks for the reply. And you are correct that I assume someone is a Trump supporter if they vote for him. Not so much on just supporting something he does as I've even made positive comments on things he's done. But at this point I believe any further votes for him would make the voter complicit in what he is doing as there should be no confusion, at this point, as to what he is doing.
My pleasure. Here’s a question, how would you know whether someone voted for Trump simply because they counter an argument made against him? What makes you think you know what is going on in the mind of someone who didn’t want to vote for him but knew that to not vote for him would (in their mind) result in someone even worse? I realize you want to make the world black and white, but you really need to understand reality. You just posted an article about understanding how people are disconnected, well, here you are demonstrating your own disconnection from reality.
You say you understand conservatives do not believe free healthcare is not the role of the federal government unrealistic and yet you then go on to say this is not what they argue. It most certainly is! Be the discussion then goes beyond that as the other side then makes move to make it the role of the Federal government. That in turn drives the discussion/debate as to whether it’s realistic, affordable, quality driven, and most importantly, sustainable. These are legitimate arguments and the other side has failed to prove to the American people that it can be done. My own experience in the military healthcare system (something we actually earned and are entitled to) has proved to me we cannot meet this criteria.
On racism. That is your perception and once again, it is a disconnection from reality. Only in this case, you fail to see the fact that racism never left the Democrat party. You’ll find plenty of people who subscribe to such attitudes on both sides. You see I recognize that there are so called conservatives who have no understanding of the proud history of the Republican Party where it has done more for Constitutional legislation for civil rights than any other party in this country. If we’re all racist, why would we be proud of that?
As for who I’m voting for in the next election (because I never said I voted for Trump or that I would again… That’s my personal business), you have no idea what I intend to do. But you have in the past on multiple occasions made that assumption about me and others. In the last election I was considering voting for a Democrat for the first time this last election, but the Democrats decided to put the worst possible candidate. Here’s the thing, if you want to see Trump go, the other candidates need to find a way to reach people like me. Because as much as you would like to claim Trump is racist, nothing he has done as President has prompted a racist action. You might perceive it otherwise, but that is again your disconnection from reality and your inability to even try to understand what motivates a conservative’s perspective. Each time the left blows up with an unhinged accusation, I ignore them that much more.
Finally, if you want to get into the philosophy of of the role of government, feel free to post another article, position, or meme. If I feel I have the time or inclination to debate you on the matter I'll do so. But as much as you "get tired of the day to day political disagreements that deal with people and personalities," you do realize you're one of the ones who pushes those discussions right? It would be great if people could speak to Trump's presidential actions without inserting their perceptions of what Trump's intent is. specifically, when he moves to fix our borders and immigration policy, few people on the left remember the statements their party made which Trump has echoed. I'm looking for something to be done vs the constant back and forth where one side does not want to give the other a victory (despite the fact they, for the most part, agree with the proposal), simply because it will make the other side more popular. This is where the unhinged hysteria starts.
Those unhinged elements on the left are essentially proposing that Trump is trying to enact better border security and immigration policy because he wants fewer (pick a race) to come into this country illegally. I simply want fewer people to come into this country illegally. If he were to single out a race (or races), I will not accept that. Trying to build better border security is not a move against the Latino community because they are Latino (as the left would like to have many believe). Regardless of whether this is Trump's true intent or not (to prevent people of Latino descent from entering our country), the border still needs to be secured. If Trump had such an intent, would that make him an ass? Absolutely! But that should not deter the American people from doing what has to be done to protect our borders. Now, if the left can present someone who will do the same, minus what they say is Trump's intent, I'd be happy to hear them out.
My pleasure. Here’s a question, how would you know whether someone voted for Trump simply because they counter an argument made against him? What makes you think you know what is going on in the mind of someone who didn’t want to vote for him but knew that to not vote for him would (in their mind) result in someone even worse? I realize you want to make the world black and white, but you really need to understand reality. You just posted an article about understanding how people are disconnected, well, here you are demonstrating your own disconnection from reality.
You say you understand conservatives do not believe free healthcare is not the role of the federal government unrealistic and yet you then go on to say this is not what they argue. It most certainly is! Be the discussion then goes beyond that as the other side then makes move to make it the role of the Federal government. That in turn drives the discussion/debate as to whether it’s realistic, affordable, quality driven, and most importantly, sustainable. These are legitimate arguments and the other side has failed to prove to the American people that it can be done. My own experience in the military healthcare system (something we actually earned and are entitled to) has proved to me we cannot meet this criteria.
On racism. That is your perception and once again, it is a disconnection from reality. Only in this case, you fail to see the fact that racism never left the Democrat party. You’ll find plenty of people who subscribe to such attitudes on both sides. You see I recognize that there are so called conservatives who have no understanding of the proud history of the Republican Party where it has done more for Constitutional legislation for civil rights than any other party in this country. If we’re all racist, why would we be proud of that?
As for who I’m voting for in the next election (because I never said I voted for Trump or that I would again… That’s my personal business), you have no idea what I intend to do. But you have in the past on multiple occasions made that assumption about me and others. In the last election I was considering voting for a Democrat for the first time this last election, but the Democrats decided to put the worst possible candidate. Here’s the thing, if you want to see Trump go, the other candidates need to find a way to reach people like me. Because as much as you would like to claim Trump is racist, nothing he has done as President has prompted a racist action. You might perceive it otherwise, but that is again your disconnection from reality and your inability to even try to understand what motivates a conservative’s perspective. Each time the left blows up with an unhinged accusation, I ignore them that much more.
Finally, if you want to get into the philosophy of of the role of government, feel free to post another article, position, or meme. If I feel I have the time or inclination to debate you on the matter I'll do so. But as much as you "get tired of the day to day political disagreements that deal with people and personalities," you do realize you're one of the ones who pushes those discussions right? It would be great if people could speak to Trump's presidential actions without inserting their perceptions of what Trump's intent is. specifically, when he moves to fix our borders and immigration policy, few people on the left remember the statements their party made which Trump has echoed. I'm looking for something to be done vs the constant back and forth where one side does not want to give the other a victory (despite the fact they, for the most part, agree with the proposal), simply because it will make the other side more popular. This is where the unhinged hysteria starts.
Those unhinged elements on the left are essentially proposing that Trump is trying to enact better border security and immigration policy because he wants fewer (pick a race) to come into this country illegally. I simply want fewer people to come into this country illegally. If he were to single out a race (or races), I will not accept that. Trying to build better border security is not a move against the Latino community because they are Latino (as the left would like to have many believe). Regardless of whether this is Trump's true intent or not (to prevent people of Latino descent from entering our country), the border still needs to be secured. If Trump had such an intent, would that make him an ass? Absolutely! But that should not deter the American people from doing what has to be done to protect our borders. Now, if the left can present someone who will do the same, minus what they say is Trump's intent, I'd be happy to hear them out.
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Some valid points, but it is just an opinion piece, quoting a small poll. And we all learned how wrong polls can be.
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