Posted on Feb 2, 2018
Navy: 17 sailors disciplined for Fitzgerald and McCain collisions
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Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 2
Hmmm...
We need to be careful about assumptions made based on this article.
For example, the officer whose NJP was reversed...we don't know enough about this to honestly say one way or another whether this was deserved, whether it was the result of influence elsewhere, or what. We don't know who it was, what watch he was standing, what department he was in, or any number of other details pertinent to any kind of non-judicial (or judicial) proceedings.
It seems to me, though, that a whole lot of NJP has been flung around for a scenario that ought to be going to Courts-Martial in a few more cases. Again...no details here to make an informed decision on this, but this is my opinion.
The article does say "Sailors normally facing NJP charges can opt instead for a court-martial instead, where they can face their charges with the help of an attorney at a public trial. But sailors attached to ships face the so-called “vessel exception,” which prevents them from refusing NJP and insisting on the court-martial option."
But this doesn't tell the full story. These proceedings didn't happen "all of the sudden" and immediately following the incident. They happened quite some time afterwards, when the ship had returned to port. This means that sufficient legal resources WERE likely available to press forward with Courts-Martial proceedings and to afford Sailors the opportunity to request Courts-Martial if they so desired.
There is a trade off for this, of course, which the article doesn't go into. Courts-Martial means all the legal rights and proceedings that accompany a criminal trial are afforded the accused. This is because a conviction in a Courts-Martial carries a criminal conviction record. NJP (Non-Judicial Punishment), however, does NOT carry a criminal conviction. There's the trade off...you can still lose some (limited) things like a portion of your pay, confinement to the ship, etc. But no prison time and no criminal record.
NJP proceedings are not bound by such things as rules of evidence and whatnot. However, most NJP proceedings I've witnessed DO tend to stick to the facts of the case in a manner in which much of what is presented WOULD be admissible. The NJP cases I've witnessed were not "kangaroo courts". No Commanding Officer wants to have his NJP rulings tossed out later because he trifled with the proceedings.
We need to be careful about assumptions made based on this article.
For example, the officer whose NJP was reversed...we don't know enough about this to honestly say one way or another whether this was deserved, whether it was the result of influence elsewhere, or what. We don't know who it was, what watch he was standing, what department he was in, or any number of other details pertinent to any kind of non-judicial (or judicial) proceedings.
It seems to me, though, that a whole lot of NJP has been flung around for a scenario that ought to be going to Courts-Martial in a few more cases. Again...no details here to make an informed decision on this, but this is my opinion.
The article does say "Sailors normally facing NJP charges can opt instead for a court-martial instead, where they can face their charges with the help of an attorney at a public trial. But sailors attached to ships face the so-called “vessel exception,” which prevents them from refusing NJP and insisting on the court-martial option."
But this doesn't tell the full story. These proceedings didn't happen "all of the sudden" and immediately following the incident. They happened quite some time afterwards, when the ship had returned to port. This means that sufficient legal resources WERE likely available to press forward with Courts-Martial proceedings and to afford Sailors the opportunity to request Courts-Martial if they so desired.
There is a trade off for this, of course, which the article doesn't go into. Courts-Martial means all the legal rights and proceedings that accompany a criminal trial are afforded the accused. This is because a conviction in a Courts-Martial carries a criminal conviction record. NJP (Non-Judicial Punishment), however, does NOT carry a criminal conviction. There's the trade off...you can still lose some (limited) things like a portion of your pay, confinement to the ship, etc. But no prison time and no criminal record.
NJP proceedings are not bound by such things as rules of evidence and whatnot. However, most NJP proceedings I've witnessed DO tend to stick to the facts of the case in a manner in which much of what is presented WOULD be admissible. The NJP cases I've witnessed were not "kangaroo courts". No Commanding Officer wants to have his NJP rulings tossed out later because he trifled with the proceedings.
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2 thoughts I have:
1) The officer that had their punishment reversed has a HUGE Sea Daddy somewhere...
2) I sincerely hope that after this, the Navy does a real hard look at manning, which I believe is the main cause of both these accidents.
1) The officer that had their punishment reversed has a HUGE Sea Daddy somewhere...
2) I sincerely hope that after this, the Navy does a real hard look at manning, which I believe is the main cause of both these accidents.
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CDR Dan Cunningham
I agree with you about manning - it's unfortunate the deck is always stacked against the ship, especially in the few months leading up to a deployment. That's when the base shrink and their 'mental health' minions start informing you of all the people you can't take to sea. That's when the pregnancies surge. Unfortunately, the Non-Seagoing mafia keeps coming up with new studies that show how they can keep slicing and dicing a crew.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Manning had nothing to do with these incidents. The Fitzgerald was god-awful watch standing and the McCain was god-awful ship handling. If anything, the best bet manning has as an argument is for crew rest, but it certainly seems a lot more like bad ship drivers. Which OOD doesn't notice the lookout hasn't been looking in the proper direction for half an hour? Which ship's captain doesn't know how to drive it and how to instruct others to do so in duress?
Just own it. SWOs have let their quality slip due to their quantity shortage.
Just own it. SWOs have let their quality slip due to their quantity shortage.
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LT Brad McInnis
LCDR (Join to see) - It is really awesome that you want to participate. Have you ever served on a DDG? Do you know what they are supposed to be manned at versus what they are? Manning has everything to do with it, as every SWO on here will tell you. Stick to flying.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Anybody with access to the manning documents knows what the manning levels are across the Navy. That's not an excuse for awful discipline in lookouts or a captain who doesn't know how to drive his ship.
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