Responses: 4
In this case the demand by the police was not congruent with the law, as such the arrest was not legitimate. She likely has a good civil case against the city if she chooses to make it.
Not everyone can make a stand on principle like that. Very impressive protection of the rights of her patient.
Not everyone can make a stand on principle like that. Very impressive protection of the rights of her patient.
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SPC Kevin Ford
SGM Erik Marquez - I know that. This is already covered by SCOTUS case law.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/14-1468.html
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/14-1468.html
FindLaw's United States Supreme Court case and opinions.
FindLaw's searchable database of United States Supreme Court decisions since
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SGM Erik Marquez
SPC Kevin Ford - Thanks
Yes in the time it took you to post I did some research.
I was not aware "Implied consent" for drivers had been declared illegal.
Guess I don't get pulled over or arrested enough for DUI to keep up with the changing laws.
I thought blood warrants were common thing just because its smart and right..I did not realize SCOTUS and made it a requirement in these type of cases.
Yes in the time it took you to post I did some research.
I was not aware "Implied consent" for drivers had been declared illegal.
Guess I don't get pulled over or arrested enough for DUI to keep up with the changing laws.
I thought blood warrants were common thing just because its smart and right..I did not realize SCOTUS and made it a requirement in these type of cases.
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SPC Kevin Ford
SGM Erik Marquez - IIRC, they can still require a breathalyzer but not a blood test. Generally anything that violates the sovereignty of of a person over what happens to their own body has generally been considered a no-no by the court.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SPC Kevin Ford - And rightfully so.
I support police, but only in lawfully, constitutionally acceptable actions.
I also despise criminals that use the constitution as a weapon to protect those illegal , immoral activities.
As an outsider with minimal facts, this Detective and his LT look to have screwed the pooch, and deserve to get spanked.
Even IF a jury finds him credible in that "I thought the law allowed for draw under implied consent"
Even if, the WAY, the decision he made to get him there are suspect. The man was NOT a suspect and was not going anywhere, he could have directed the hospital to maintain the person evidence in secure manner, even under LEO observation to maintain chain of custody ..while an electronic warrant for blood draw was gotten. EDIT: The guy in the hospital was the victim ...he was not even a suspect, that guy died at the scene after causing the crash. , now I get what the office could be heard stating in another Video I just watched, they did not have PC for a warrant... This gets weirded and weirder.
I read something in that article I linked, that one cop or another said they did not have PC for the blood warrant. If thats true, then they are in two FULL bags of shit...
I really did not know implied consent was struck down for anything other then breath BAC.. Wounder if that covers hair samples as well? All though Hair can only show use, not when used.
I support police, but only in lawfully, constitutionally acceptable actions.
I also despise criminals that use the constitution as a weapon to protect those illegal , immoral activities.
As an outsider with minimal facts, this Detective and his LT look to have screwed the pooch, and deserve to get spanked.
Even IF a jury finds him credible in that "I thought the law allowed for draw under implied consent"
Even if, the WAY, the decision he made to get him there are suspect. The man was NOT a suspect and was not going anywhere, he could have directed the hospital to maintain the person evidence in secure manner, even under LEO observation to maintain chain of custody ..while an electronic warrant for blood draw was gotten. EDIT: The guy in the hospital was the victim ...he was not even a suspect, that guy died at the scene after causing the crash. , now I get what the office could be heard stating in another Video I just watched, they did not have PC for a warrant... This gets weirded and weirder.
I read something in that article I linked, that one cop or another said they did not have PC for the blood warrant. If thats true, then they are in two FULL bags of shit...
I really did not know implied consent was struck down for anything other then breath BAC.. Wounder if that covers hair samples as well? All though Hair can only show use, not when used.
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SSG Trust Palmer: This is a very Brave nurse. No, she decidedly should Not have complied with the Officer's demand.
-Warmly, Margaret
-Warmly, Margaret
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I don't fault the nurse for standing her ground as to not doing something against Hospital policy and leave herself open to administrative actions.
However, Hospital policy does not dictate lawful actions.
SO my question is, regardless of a hospital policy, was the request to have blood draw legal? and I dont know...
Is there some legal prohibition from drawing blood on this person? or just Hospital administrators decision not to allow it?
If its legally allowed.... the Hospital admin put that Nurse in a crappy position.
I also do not know what the obligation of the hospital was under to provide blood draw services?
Some contract between the PD and hospital ? Between the state and hospital? No obligation at all?
Is there local or state law that says a hospital that receives ANY state funding or grants must comply with enforcements request for a blood draw?
Does it say that, but LEO must have a blood warrant or the person be under arrest (that seems likely and the hospital policy mirrored that part of the law) ?
Or is it a free market thing, Law enforcement wants it, they offer to pay for the service, but the hospital is free to say No thanks, we only wish to provide phlebotomy service under the flowing conditions...
Way to many un answered questions to come to an overall conclusion.
I can say, that nurse had the short end of the stick no matter what.. It would seem she was making the only decision common sense and available information allowed her to make... I hope justice is done and she is taken care of.
It does appear an officer made a bad call, Judges are typically available to approve blood warrants when appropriate and justified..and I'd bet, there is no prosecutor alive and successful practicing that would not rather HAVE a judge signed blood warrant then not, even if the law allowed the specimen sample collection without one... (Members of the jury, not only does the law allow a blood sample to be drawn upon LEO request following a fatality accident with an apparent use of an intoxicant, but a Judge also agreed the sample collection was justified, allowed under law, and so ordered its collection.)
So EVEN if the law allowed the blood draw under the circumstance this event happened in, upon learning of local hospital policy they were up against, the officer could have chosen to obtain a warrant, place the person under arrest, or go to a different facility.
The obstruction charge MIGHT be levied against the administrator that created that policy, but not the employee obligated to follow it. But hey Im not a lawyer, and how knows what the law actually says or requires in this case.
However, Hospital policy does not dictate lawful actions.
SO my question is, regardless of a hospital policy, was the request to have blood draw legal? and I dont know...
Is there some legal prohibition from drawing blood on this person? or just Hospital administrators decision not to allow it?
If its legally allowed.... the Hospital admin put that Nurse in a crappy position.
I also do not know what the obligation of the hospital was under to provide blood draw services?
Some contract between the PD and hospital ? Between the state and hospital? No obligation at all?
Is there local or state law that says a hospital that receives ANY state funding or grants must comply with enforcements request for a blood draw?
Does it say that, but LEO must have a blood warrant or the person be under arrest (that seems likely and the hospital policy mirrored that part of the law) ?
Or is it a free market thing, Law enforcement wants it, they offer to pay for the service, but the hospital is free to say No thanks, we only wish to provide phlebotomy service under the flowing conditions...
Way to many un answered questions to come to an overall conclusion.
I can say, that nurse had the short end of the stick no matter what.. It would seem she was making the only decision common sense and available information allowed her to make... I hope justice is done and she is taken care of.
It does appear an officer made a bad call, Judges are typically available to approve blood warrants when appropriate and justified..and I'd bet, there is no prosecutor alive and successful practicing that would not rather HAVE a judge signed blood warrant then not, even if the law allowed the specimen sample collection without one... (Members of the jury, not only does the law allow a blood sample to be drawn upon LEO request following a fatality accident with an apparent use of an intoxicant, but a Judge also agreed the sample collection was justified, allowed under law, and so ordered its collection.)
So EVEN if the law allowed the blood draw under the circumstance this event happened in, upon learning of local hospital policy they were up against, the officer could have chosen to obtain a warrant, place the person under arrest, or go to a different facility.
The obstruction charge MIGHT be levied against the administrator that created that policy, but not the employee obligated to follow it. But hey Im not a lawyer, and how knows what the law actually says or requires in this case.
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SGM Erik Marquez
Some more info
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?utm_term=.07686c65aae2
It does look like this was all kinds of wrong... Good on her for standing her ground, sucks she had to endure that.. My guess is that Detective is going to have cost the city a good chunk of change, meaning Taxpayers of course..
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?utm_term=.07686c65aae2
It does look like this was all kinds of wrong... Good on her for standing her ground, sucks she had to endure that.. My guess is that Detective is going to have cost the city a good chunk of change, meaning Taxpayers of course..
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SGM Erik Marquez
And its gets stranger, the officer was the one there to do the draw..from a deceased suspect no less. "A neighboring police department sent Payne, a trained police phlebotomist, to collect blood from the patient and check for illicit substances, as the Tribune reported. The goal was reportedly to protect the trucker, who was not suspected of a crime. His lieutenant ordered him to arrest Wubbels if she refused to let him draw a sample, according to the Tribune."
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1SG (Join to see)
That deceased person was involved in an accident so severe to cause death. Do you not think that his impaired state my be of concern. Even deceased, the level of concentration of the ingested product dissipates. A timely blood draw is critical to obtaining the facts. I mean really, The dead guy will not face jail time by you, the nurse, complying with the implied consent blood draw.
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SGM Erik Marquez
1SG (Join to see) -I think your making the same mistake I did at first.
The deceased person was the driver of the vehicle being chased and he was still at the scene at the time this event happened.
The Person at the hospital was the truck driver who was a victim in the crash.. He was critically injured in that police chase that ended with the suspects car crashing into the victims truck.
The truck driver the detective phlebotomist was attempting to get a blood draw from was not a suspected in a crime,,,,and that apparently is why there was no arrest, no warrant.. at that point (and still) he was not suspected of having committed a crime, he was a victim of a crash caused by the suspect who was running from the police.
The deceased person was the driver of the vehicle being chased and he was still at the scene at the time this event happened.
The Person at the hospital was the truck driver who was a victim in the crash.. He was critically injured in that police chase that ended with the suspects car crashing into the victims truck.
The truck driver the detective phlebotomist was attempting to get a blood draw from was not a suspected in a crime,,,,and that apparently is why there was no arrest, no warrant.. at that point (and still) he was not suspected of having committed a crime, he was a victim of a crash caused by the suspect who was running from the police.
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